Topic: Which vs That (SOS Que/Cobra)

[Pugnate]

So I am generally OK when it comes to which vs that. 'Which' is generally used to provide additional information and it doesn't affect the meaning of the sentence. 'That' is used when it is pivotal to the sentence.

For example:  

1. The iPad, which connects to the iCloud, was created by Apple. (All iPads connect to the iCloud, so it’s unnecessary information.)

2. The iPad that is broken is being taken for repairs. (by using 'that' I am saying I have several iPads and the broken one is being taken for repairs. Had I used 'which', it would have meant I only have one iPad and it happens to be broken.)

Right?

OK so I may have messed up a few times in a recent article. I need help:

1. In Pakistan we have as many options to choose from between vehicles as guys have dating choices in an all-boys school, which is to say, not much.

I feel like I should have used 'that' instead of 'which'. But not sure why?

2. As a result of this monopoly we are stuck with pricey cars which have long been obsolete overseas.

I feel like I should have used 'that' instead of 'which'... because not all pricey cars in Pakistan have been long been obsolete. By using which, I am saying all pricey cars have long been obsolete. Right?

3. Another excellent alternative are the various imported Japanese cars which have flooded the market such as the Toyota Vitz and the like.


I feel I should have written 'that' again because I am talking only about the imports that have flooded the market and not the rare imports, which aren't sensible buys. Right?

4. While its spare parts are pricier than those of a Suzuki, even after crossing 100,00kms in Karachi, a well-kept Honda City will serve better than a far newer Suzuki Alto or Suzuki Cultus which start running into issues at half the distance.

OK I feel I got it completely right here. By using 'which' I am saying that all Suzuki Altos and Cultus run into issues at half the distance. Had I sad 'that', it would have meant that I am specifically talking about only the Altos and Cultus cars that run into issues, when I believe they all do.

5. Three of my friends who owned the vehicle shared various horror stories, which started when the vehicle hit close to 50,000kms


So should it be which or that here? I am so confused. I believe 'that' is the correct?

6. Perhaps the most magical option is the Sunday Car Bazaar which takes place on the outskirts of Karachi.


OK so I know I got it right here. There is only one Sunday Car Bazaar. Had I said 'that', it would have meant there were several of these Bazaars and I was talking about the one taking place on the outskirts.

7. But more importantly, a car which has been driven lovingly for 30,000 kilometers will be in far better condition that a vehicle abused for 10,000 kilometers.


Obviously I should have used 'that'.

OK. That's it.

[Cobra951]

Despite being an English major in college, I don't remember this distinction ever coming up.  "Which" is the equivalent of "who" (when the subject is a person).  Perhaps substituting a person in the sentence that is (which is?) giving you trouble would help you construct it more to your liking.  I do this sort of substitution sometimes for similar reasons.  For instance, is "you and I" correct, or is it "you and me"?  I simply take out the "you and" to test, then add it back in.  "(You and) I went to the store."  "A package arrived for (you and) me."  People always want to add themselves to the end of a list of persons as "I" because the alternative sounds less literate, and half the time, they're wrong.

Edit:  Heheh!  Google wants to help too:

http://www.kentlaw.edu/academics/lrw/grinker/LwtaThat_Versus_Which.htm

The other hits (to "'that' vs 'which'") are in agreement.  It's all about restrictive vs non-restrictive clauses.  How about that.  I think I learned something new today.

TL;DR:  Right!  Your understanding is correct.

[scottws]

Despite being an English major in college, I don't remember this distinction ever coming up.  "Which" is the equivalent of "who" (when the subject is a person).  Perhaps substituting a person in the sentence that is (which is?) giving you trouble would help you construct it more to your liking.  I do this sort of substitution sometimes for similar reasons.  For instance, is "you and I" correct, or is it "you and me"?  I simply take out the "you and" to test, then add it back in.  "(You and) I went to the store."  "A package arrived for (you and) me."  People always want to add themselves to the end of a list of persons as "I" because the alternative sounds less literate, and half the time, they're wrong.

Edit:  Heheh!  Google wants to help too:

http://www.kentlaw.edu/academics/lrw/grinker/LwtaThat_Versus_Which.htm

The other hits (to "'that' vs 'which'") are in agreement.  It's all about restrictive vs non-restrictive clauses.  How about that.  I think I learned something new today.

TL;DR:  Right!  Your understanding is correct.

I was taught in grade school that it is pretty much always "you and I".  It was only much later that I realized that was only correct for the subject of sentences.

I'll defer to you, Que, or Cobra on "which" vs. "that".

[Xessive]

I generally use "which" when I'm using parenthetical commas to specify e.g. "The car, which is was driven to the office, was red." but I would use "that" in a past tense "The car that he drove to the office was red." If there's a comma I'll go with "which" but if it's a continuous sentence with critical information I'll go with "that."

I guess I always went subconsciously with asking a mental question about what is being referred; I ask "which one," if the answer can be pointed to "this one or that one" then I'll use "which." If the answer demanded a specific or detailed response I'd go with "that."

[Pugnate]

Well, if my go-to-grammar-man Cobra didn't know, then I suddenly don't feel like shit about getting it wrong for so long.

Yes, it is all about restrictive vs non-restrictive clauses.

My favorite example is this one:

The iPad, which connects to the iCloud, was created by Apple. (Which is used here to provide some info about the iPad)

The iPad that connects to the iCloud was created by Apple. (That implies that only the iPads that connect to the iCloud were created by Apple).

So the funny thing is that although there is a correct way to use that vs which, it has become so interchangeable that it almost doesn't matter. My editor told me most modern day editors are fine with either way.

I also try not to use that or which so much. It is frowned upon by most editors it seems.

[Cobra951]

Yeah, it's just not a big deal.  Sandy makes a thing out out of "less" vs "fewer".  She's right ("less water", "fewer things"), but I just don't even think about it.  I'll use "less" quite a bit more than "fewer".  I also don't use punctuation inside a quote unless it's part of the quote (as you can see).  That is my personal rebellion against a grammatical rule I know, but don't agree with.  I also have no compunction about ending a sentence with a preposition.  I don't think I'd make a very good English professor.  

[Quemaqua]

Heh, I guess you all beat me to it and figure it out. Sometimes "which" and "that" are somewhat interchangeable, in that they don't change the meaning of the sentence, but there's still one that's usually grammatically correct given the sentence structure. But it usually does change the meaning, so you shouldn't fuck it up. If any editor lets that slide, they're a shitty editor.

"Less" vs. "fewer" often drives me nuts. And how everyone calls things ironic that are just coincidental (thank you, Richard Castle, for making this discussion relevant again to the masses). "You and I" is another one that English teachers have taught wrongly for years, and since I'm dating a teacher and get to see more of that world now, I can say from firsthand experience that sometimes the people teaching your kids English are the worst possible candidates.

I'm with you on the punctuation, though, Cobra. I thought I was the only person that did that. Too funny!

[Xessive]

I used to refuse to put punctuation inside quotes unless they were part of the quote until I finally gave in and started including them in quotes. I got really tired of squiggly green or red underlines.

For "less" and "fewer" I generally with if I can refer to items with "many" or "few" I'll go with "fewer" otherwise I'll go with "less". (Huh, no squiggly lines in the browser! I had to go against my own new programming to put that period after the quote ).

[Cobra951]

Heh!  So given all this laxness and latitude, why does "its" vs "it's" bother me so much?  Maybe because I'm seeing the pronoun-verb contraction used wrongly in place of the possessive pronoun all over, even in reputable publications?

[Xessive]

Heh!  So given all this laxness and latitude, why does "its" vs "it's" bother me so much?  Maybe because I'm seeing the pronoun-verb contraction used wrongly in place of the possessive pronoun all over, even in reputable publications?

Yeah, that one is inexcusable. Any time I spot the error I assume it's a typo.

[Pugnate]

I draw the line at its vs it's.

No excuse.

[Xessive]

How does everyone feel about the Oxford comma?

[Quemaqua]

Necessary for disambiguation, and anyone who says otherwise is an idiot. I do not give ground on this. A sentence where the oxford comma is noticeably absent also does not conform to the way sentences are spoken without it (generally). There is a pause in speech, thus there should be an indication of such via punctuation.

Is it really a big deal? No. Even in times when disambiguation is more necessary than others, you can still generally figure out what someone means without it, so it doesn't end up being extremely important in the grand scheme of things, but that doesn't make its absence any more correct. ppl cn fgur out wat u meen evn f u do writin lik dis, but that doesn't make it any more proper.

[Xessive]

[scottws]

How does everyone feel about the Oxford comma?

I support the Oxford/serial comma.

[Xessive]

Indeed, good sir.

[Cobra951]

Something else I never thought much about.  I think I use the Oxford comma most of the time.  Intuitively, it makes sense.

[Quemaqua]

It's yet another big thing English-language writers love to fight about. It's a really dumb fight, but a lot of us get pretty vehement about it, and it has raged since time immemorial with no sign of dying out. I'm not even sure what the APA style guide or Chicago Manual of Style have to say about it, oddly enough.

[scottws]

My current girlfriend and I both talk about grammar and spelling pet peeves quite a bit.  The Oxford comma as well as "I" vs. "me" have both come up.

[Quemaqua]

Sounds like a keeper to me.