Author Topic: Trump is now president  (Read 3163 times)

Offline scottws

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #120 on: Thursday, September 28, 2017, 04:00:02 AM »
So Trump finally did something I like:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/15/politics/lawnmower-kid-cnntv/index.html

Other than that?  Yeah, I pretty much still vehemently disagree with every single thing he says and does.

Offline idolminds

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #121 on: Wednesday, October 11, 2017, 12:36:20 PM »
Quote
With all of the Fake News coming out of NBC and the Networks, at what point is it appropriate to challenge their License? Bad for country!

Literally unconstitutional. And he just...tweets it.

Offline scottws

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #122 on: Wednesday, October 11, 2017, 02:30:43 PM »
Luckily, NBC doesn't hold such licenses in any case so it's a bit of a non-issue.  But didn't Nixon try something along these lines with WaPo way back when?  What a great President to follow in the footsteps of.

My Facebook friends are a mix of people from far left to far right and everything in between.  I've attempted to have discussions on some of the far right comment threads and there is one constant: anything Trump or his mouthpieces say or do is okay and anything else is fake news.  It doesn't matter that these people have been seen to basically hold the paradoxical position of "How dare you disrespect the flag/anthem of the country I plan to overthrow!" (FTW, that's a reference to people that simultaneously hold the view that the NFL kneelers are disrespecting the U.S.A. and the military in particular and that any form of gun control, such as in reference to large clip sizes or firing rate, is against the 2nd amendment because the 2nd amendment wasn't about hunting or sport, it was about having the ability to possess weapons to participate in an effective revolution).

I've been in enough engagements at this point to be able to imagine the discussion points on this threat against NBC now.  "Well, NBC is nothing but fake news so there should be some way to stop them!"  "NBC nor any other news organization has any right to commit libel or slander and they should be punished via any means available".

I mean we are talking a full on assault on our standard operating attempt at representative democracy here at this point and it's happening on weekly basis.  I mean, I agree with the sentiment of some of the Trump voters that we need to find a way to break the oligarchy being established in this country, but electing a self-serving billionaire to be that vehicle?  That was never going to happen.  But he's worse than a self-serving billionaire.  He's a bull in a china shop.  He's already assaulted our judicial branch on many occasions. Sarah Huckabee Sanders flat out stated that a GOP congressman should resign if he wasn't going to follow the President's agenda.  There is a reason that the founders of this nation created the three branches as checks and balances against one another.  Congress should represent the constituents of their state or district, not the President.

I wish Cobra would chime back in.  Early in this thread he said he might someday regret that he voted for Trump, but doubted it.  I'd love to hear an updated perspective from someone that I have respect for and that can communicate their wildly different viewpoint (from mine) in a friendly and intelligent manner.

Offline idolminds

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #123 on: Thursday, October 12, 2017, 09:24:29 AM »
On Texas after a hurricane hit:


Today on Puerto Rico:


Remember, Puerto Rico is a US Territory. The people are natural born US citizens. You can travel between PR and the US mainland without a passport.

Offline ren

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #124 on: Sunday, October 15, 2017, 03:16:18 AM »
Luckily, NBC doesn't hold such licenses in any case so it's a bit of a non-issue.  But didn't Nixon try something along these lines with WaPo way back when?  What a great President to follow in the footsteps of.


I've been in enough engagements at this point to be able to imagine the discussion points on this threat against NBC now.  "Well, NBC is nothing but fake news so there should be some way to stop them!"  "NBC nor any other news organization has any right to commit libel or slander and they should be punished via any means available".

I mean we are talking a full on assault on our standard operating attempt at representative democracy here at this point and it's happening on weekly basis.  I mean, I agree with the sentiment of some of the Trump voters that we need to find a way to break the oligarchy being established in this country, but electing a self-serving billionaire to be that vehicle?  That was never going to happen.  But he's worse than a self-serving billionaire.  He's a bull in a china shop.  He's already assaulted our judicial branch on many occasions. Sarah Huckabee Sanders flat out stated that a GOP congressman should resign if he wasn't going to follow the President's agenda.  There is a reason that the founders of this nation created the three branches as checks and balances against one another.  Congress should represent the constituents of their state or district, not the President.

I wish Cobra would chime back in.  Early in this thread he said he might someday regret that he voted for Trump, but doubted it.  I'd love to hear an updated perspective from someone that I have respect for and that can communicate their wildly different viewpoint (from mine) in a friendly and intelligent manner.

Not Cobra, whose opinion I'm also interested in, but I can empathize with Trump's NBC comment.

If it were flipped the other way and there was discussion about banning Breitbart and other fake news/propaganda machines, I would give it serious thought. In Canada our libel/slander laws are broader than yours are our free speech has some limitations; the kind of language used in these publications is borderline illegal here and in many cases likely on the wrong side of the border. A Fox news style TV channel tried to open here and there was mass backlash and they eventually pulled out.

Now if I put myself on the other side of the spectrum and felt NBC was a propaganda rag, by my own arguments I'd want it shut down.

This is using Canadian laws and sensibilities and absolutely goes against the US Constitution but the Constitution is hardly representative of an average emotional person.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #125 on: Monday, October 16, 2017, 11:23:23 AM »
Luckily, NBC doesn't hold such licenses in any case so it's a bit of a non-issue.  But didn't Nixon try something along these lines with WaPo way back when?  What a great President to follow in the footsteps of.

My Facebook friends are a mix of people from far left to far right and everything in between.  I've attempted to have discussions on some of the far right comment threads and there is one constant: anything Trump or his mouthpieces say or do is okay and anything else is fake news.  It doesn't matter that these people have been seen to basically hold the paradoxical position of "How dare you disrespect the flag/anthem of the country I plan to overthrow!" (FTW, that's a reference to people that simultaneously hold the view that the NFL kneelers are disrespecting the U.S.A. and the military in particular and that any form of gun control, such as in reference to large clip sizes or firing rate, is against the 2nd amendment because the 2nd amendment wasn't about hunting or sport, it was about having the ability to possess weapons to participate in an effective revolution).

I've been in enough engagements at this point to be able to imagine the discussion points on this threat against NBC now.  "Well, NBC is nothing but fake news so there should be some way to stop them!"  "NBC nor any other news organization has any right to commit libel or slander and they should be punished via any means available".

I mean we are talking a full on assault on our standard operating attempt at representative democracy here at this point and it's happening on weekly basis.  I mean, I agree with the sentiment of some of the Trump voters that we need to find a way to break the oligarchy being established in this country, but electing a self-serving billionaire to be that vehicle?  That was never going to happen.  But he's worse than a self-serving billionaire.  He's a bull in a china shop.  He's already assaulted our judicial branch on many occasions. Sarah Huckabee Sanders flat out stated that a GOP congressman should resign if he wasn't going to follow the President's agenda.  There is a reason that the founders of this nation created the three branches as checks and balances against one another.  Congress should represent the constituents of their state or district, not the President.

I wish Cobra would chime back in.  Early in this thread he said he might someday regret that he voted for Trump, but doubted it.  I'd love to hear an updated perspective from someone that I have respect for and that can communicate their wildly different viewpoint (from mine) in a friendly and intelligent manner.

I said before that I'd only comment in this section again if someone asked me to.  OK, then.  To answer your question, no, I do not regret voting for Trump.  If anything, I'm more glad than ever that I have.  His opposition has imploded emotionally in a way that makes his own childish tendencies seem statesmanlike by comparison.  I include Mrs Clinton in that remark.  She still tries and fails to come to grips with the reality of her loss, with the never-ending temper tantrum revealing a vicious vindictive character that would have been the worst of the possible outcomes for the White House.

I will not get into debates about policy or politics.  I think we all know those lead nowhere productive.  I will only say this:  Everyone reporting or commenting on current events is partisan.  Everyone.  And in this emotional, highly charged, polarized atmosphere, that means that it is impossible to glean objective truth from any one source, or any one similarly aligned group of sources.  Prevarication is routine.  To see depth we need binocular vision--a right eye and a left eye.  We need to apply that concept to our fact-gathering efforts, or even take it further, because the political spectrum is more dimensional than left and right.

Most of my family is in Puerto Rico, and they have just experienced the most devastating natural disaster ever, especially taking into account the population and infrastructure growth since San Ciprian in 1932.  The sheer scale of the damage seems to escape everyone.  This isn't like St Thomas or Turks and Caicos, or even New Orleans.  There are 3.5 million of us living on 3425 square miles of US territory.  Being an island, no one can walk out of the disaster zone into the First World like they can in Louisiana.  Help can't drive in either.  If a shipment of a million jugs of water comes in, they'll be thankful, and then ask what they can drink tomorrow.

So far, I have no problem with the US response, given the enormity and unexpectedness of the task.  No one can be prepared for something like this.  It must be taken as it comes.  But I do hope the help and creativity (Elon Musk, you still looking into your plans?) continue for as long as it takes.  Otherwise, the slow disaster will eclipse the fast one from Maria.

My mother fell down the stairs and broke her right femur in March.  Life has been unkind to us here since, as I try to help her literally to get back on her feet.  At her age, and with her stubbornness, it has so far been a thankless, fruitless task.  Put this together with hurricane Maria and the inevitable damage to my personal relationships.  As you might imagine, I have very little patience left for horn locking or other random bullshit.  I feel isolated and alone, and I will try to come back to OW for a bit of respite.  Not here, though.  Politics is a hopeless subject at present, though I have not lost hope in our country altogether.

Offline scottws

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #126 on: Tuesday, October 17, 2017, 11:45:10 AM »
Thanks for your perspective.  For what it's worth, I totally agree with you on Hillary Clinton with regards to her various statements and book since she lost the election.  You lost, lady!  Get over it!

Yeah, part of it was for reasons outside of her control.  But there were plenty that were in her control that mattered, such as to not just assume that she had all of Obama's votes and actually do some of the legwork on her own.  I wouldn't mind if she came out with a book reflecting on her election defeat a decade from now, but less than a year later?  It just seems like sour grapes, especially when it continues all the finger pointing which doesn't involve any pointing at herself.  I feel like time will change her views on the subject quite a bit.  At least I hope so, for her sake.

I also agree with your perspective on information and needing to look at multiple sources on both sides.  The talking heads like Sean Hannity on Fox News are joke, but the Fox News website is actually a good source of information.  But when when did outfits like the New York Times and the Washington Post become nothing but spewers of complete falsehoods and outfits named things like Red State Watcher and Right Wing News become blindly trusted sources of information for people?  I have acquaintances and relatives in my Facebook news feed sharing things from groups called Anti-Liberal Zone, Deplorables, and RT (yes, RT, as in the Russian propaganda outfit formerly known as Russia Today).  But if you try to counter with something from a reputable news source with actual journalistic standards...?  Oh, didn't you know?  That's fake news.  To be fair, I also see liberals in my feed sharing things from News & Guts and Axios but do have to say that, while having a clear, strong anti-Trump slant, these are nowhere near as bad as the drivel from those right-wing outfits I mentioned.

As far as the wider discussion, I know you don't want to debate.  But I did want to say a piece about your statement about hope for the country as a whole: I wish I shared your optimism.  I truly do.

I've always held strong beliefs that politicians use social and moral issues as a wool over our eyes and get our focus fixed to give them space to do other things while people aren't paying attention.  Things like changes to laws, policies, and regulations that favor the oligarchy over the masses or massive, extremely profitable companies over citizens.  Republicans are waving the nationalist flag now and getting a lot of support from the patriot types and stirring up arguments between racists and anti-racists and ultranationalists and more pragmatic types, but at the same time they are paving the way for the ultra-wealthy to become even more so.  I wish people would focus on the things that are actually important.

Some NFL player that people don't know in a city they've probably never been to is kneeling during the national anthem somehow gets people all bent out of shape, but rumblings about the government getting rid of the CFPB, reversing regulations put in place that reign in Wall Street in order to help prevent another Great Recession, large tax cuts for the very wealthy with a pittance handed out to everyone else (or even a tax increase in some cases)...?  Supply-side economics has already been tried and its trickle-down effects were seen to be minimal.  Trump and the Republicans want to get rid of the estate tax, which is a clear sign that rich people want to hoard wealth, not allow it to trickle down.

Expansion of policies favoring private prisons, creating a financial incentive to put people in jail.  Policies harming education, resulting in a more poorly educated populace and all of the problems that come along with that.  Policies and laws allowing companies to collect and sell personal information without consent.  Policies turning our police into a military occupying force and eliminating any rights at or near the border (which includes international airports).  Increases in government surveillance.  Elimination of the right to be able to form a class in a lawsuit in order to hold companies accountable for gross negligence or malfeasance.

Where's the outrage over these things?  Instead we see blind *support*, because people aren't even looking and support their chosen leader(s) no matter what.

While the wool pulling isn't a totally new phenomenon, I feel like we are seeing more polarization and much more fierce blind support (or blind disapproval).  Extreme polarization has already done damage in Congress in terms of getting sensible bipartisan legislation passed that contains compromises for both sides, and the polarization is only going to get worse.  See the election of extreme right Roy Moore over Luther Strange and rumblings that a "Tea Party of the left" sort of movement is going to result in much more leftist candidates making it out of Democrat primaries.  This polarization has already had a huge impact on bipartisanship and it's only going to get worse as more Congressional seats change hands.

The "solution" to Congressional gridlock at partisanship - for both parties - has been to use all kinds of procedural tricks in order to try get things passed.  Such as using the reconciliation process for laws that this process was never designed for in order to avoid a Senate fillibuster.  Now there is talk about the Senate removing the fillibuster, which is basically the last thing standing in our government that forces some degree of bipartisan compromise.  Don't we want bipartisanship?  When did that become bad?  Sure, bipartisanship means that we might lose some things we want when our party is in power, but it also means that we don't get things we absolutely hate when our party isn't.

I don't agree with you at all about Donald Trump, as I'm sure is clear.  I think the guy is a total buffoon, a terrible leader, and extremely damaging to the fabric of this country.  But that's beside the point.  He's just a symptom of a bigger problem in this country.  This article is a bit alarmist, but it makes some really good points.  I know it's Vox, but I hope you take the time to read it in any case.  After all, you said yourself that you need both left and right vision.

Sorry to hear that you're having a rough patch.  I hope everything improves for you and your family.  And again, thanks for your perspective.

Offline ren

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #127 on: Saturday, November 18, 2017, 10:57:51 PM »
It looks like the TPP is back and moving forward without US involvement. I was originally not a fan of the TPP and a little relieved when Trump killed it but the new version without the US is substantially improved. Much of the copyright, IP, pharmaceutical and liability rules that the U.S. was pushing have been suspended.

It's very interesting to watch the rest of the world go ahead without U.S. leadership. I was originally quite nervous about it but now I'm moving into cautious optimism. Who knows what'll happen when the next President tries to assume the standard US world leader role and sees the rest of the world has moved on.


Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #128 on: Monday, November 20, 2017, 12:49:38 PM »
Pretty interesting situation. US doesn't have the clout it once did, and Asia in particular may begin to form a different dynamic. TPP was indeed a shitshow at the start, so I was also glad it got killed. We'll see what comes of it all now.

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