Author Topic: New Xbox  (Read 16977 times)

Offline idolminds

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #40 on: Tuesday, May 21, 2013, 11:57:26 PM »
I think Belmont is right. Going back to the Sony thread they didn't show a whole lot either, but they had actual game footage up on screen, and wasn't Watch_dogs a live demo? The only live demo MS had was task switching. So if you aren't the kind of gamer wowed by EA Sports titles or yet another Call of Duty the show didn't offer you much of anything to be excited about.

I mentioned this in IRC but this might be because we are so close to E3. I doubt too many 3rd party devs wanted to walk out on stage and blow their load two weeks before E3 and then have no hype at the show.

Offline TheOtherBelmont

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #41 on: Tuesday, May 21, 2013, 11:58:18 PM »
Last time around it was the PS3 getting the flak for the multimedia stuff!

Most of that flak revolved around the pricing of the PS3 so people were finding anything on the system to say "See, X thing is making this system cost so much".  It definitely is a reversal though.  The pricing for these systems is where the line is going to be drawn for a lot of people.


EDIT: This is completely unrelated to my previous post, but Microsoft has confirmed that all of the TV stuff is going to be for Gold members only.  So to watch your cable TV channels, Netflix, and any other streaming service, you have to not only pay the streaming/cable/content provider, but you have to pay $60 a year to Microsoft to access it.  Un-fucking-believable.  The sad part is, people are going to do it without hesitation.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #42 on: Wednesday, May 22, 2013, 12:14:12 AM »
It is also USA only.

Offline Xessive

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #43 on: Wednesday, May 22, 2013, 01:19:39 AM »
Can't help but bring this back to Sony for a compare & contrast: all basic functionality is available to all PSN/SEN users, including streaming/Netflix etc. PSN Plus gives you access to very few and very specific exclusives but it also gives you discounts on certain purchases as well. That's aside from the monthly free game you get access to for as long as you're a Plus subscriber. If Sony got one thing right during the PS3's lifetime it's Plus. They don't take basic services away from their users and re-wrap them up as "exclusive subscriber services," Sony actually give benefits and bonuses to Plus subscribers, making it tempting and inevitably worthwhile to become one. I still have a hard time believing "you have to be a Gold member to play online" and that people actually pay for it.

I'm having a great experience with Plus so far and I will certainly be renewing my subscription. As for Microsoft's decisions? Just one more reason to stay away and I am relieved that I started shifting everything away from Microsoft's services last year; goodbye Windows Phone, goodbye Hotmail. I'm still hanging on to my gamertag due to the few awesome games that wound up in the middle of terrible bureaucratic decisions getting them stuck with GFWL.

Offline Xessive

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #44 on: Wednesday, May 22, 2013, 03:54:00 AM »
Well, I think I just found the inspiration for the Xbox One's plain design.



It looks like a Tivo box or a very generic TV receiver.. Hmm, also kinda like an old desktop pc.

Offline idolminds

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #45 on: Wednesday, May 22, 2013, 09:28:19 AM »

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #46 on: Wednesday, May 22, 2013, 10:44:47 AM »
Hahaha... that was awesome. And seems entirely accurate. Fuck I hate what videogames are now.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline MysterD

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #47 on: Wednesday, May 22, 2013, 02:42:40 PM »
I think Belmont is right. Going back to the Sony thread they didn't show a whole lot either, but they had actual game footage up on screen, and wasn't Watch_dogs a live demo?
Watch Dogs was again a LIVE Demo shown on the PC.
They ain't shown the console versions yet.

Offline MysterD

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #48 on: Wednesday, May 22, 2013, 04:50:12 PM »

Offline idolminds

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #49 on: Wednesday, May 22, 2013, 07:27:48 PM »
Microsoft to PC gamers: "Womp womp"

Offline Pugnate

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #50 on: Wednesday, May 22, 2013, 09:50:35 PM »
I blame the fans and jurnos who orgasmed when MS said they would revive PC gaming recently. I don't know how people constantly buy into MS bullshit.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #51 on: Wednesday, May 22, 2013, 11:03:26 PM »
People buy into basically any and all bullshit given to them by anyone. Nobody fucking thinks anymore.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline Pugnate

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #52 on: Wednesday, May 22, 2013, 11:23:29 PM »
It was all a transparent attempt to sell Windows 8 etc. I remember all the press releases that were being eaten up.

Really, I blame the video game journalists. Probably the most corrupt breed of journos anywhere.

Offline idolminds

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #53 on: Thursday, May 23, 2013, 09:41:08 AM »
This article is the biggest pile of horseshit I've ever read.

Offline Xessive

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #54 on: Thursday, May 23, 2013, 09:52:54 AM »
This article is the biggest pile of horseshit I've ever read.
Spinny Arcade!

Offline Cobra951

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #55 on: Thursday, May 23, 2013, 10:40:12 AM »
This article is the biggest pile of horseshit I've ever read.

It's good news in the sense that it will save me a lot of money.  No temptation to buy into it.  Now let's see how Sony handles the same self-serving, anti-consumer issues.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #56 on: Thursday, May 23, 2013, 11:24:48 AM »
http://www.cracked.com/quick-fixes/5-features-new-xbox-that-are-about-to-ruin-everything/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=fanpage&utm_campaign=new+article&wa_ibsrc=fanpage


edit:

This has to be one of the most poorly written, terribly researched pieces of 'journalism' on the internet. Terrible piece from Cracked.

If I make a mistake on the Tribune, I am required to add an unconditional apology etc.

Here, the writer lies about something then just adds this: "EDIT: I have been told that actually you can do this now just by pushing the "input" button on your remote control."

You can do this NOW? No you dumb fuck, the facts didn't change after you wrote the piece. You didn't do your research and just wanted to finish your '5 things I hate' article. Uhhh... I hate this new world of journalism where all the ad revenue comes from clicks, so websites which publish the most sensational piece of crap are getting most traffic.

Offline idolminds

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #57 on: Thursday, May 23, 2013, 12:21:13 PM »
If you weren't convinced Ben Kuchera was an idiot by that PA article...



The responses are fun to read.

Hey Ben, let me let you in on a secret: they don't stay "next gen" forever, but the internet requirement will.

Oh man, if just gets better.


At least Patrick gets it.


EDIT: Looking at other tweets it sounds like Patrick is going to do a dumptruck on this topic with McElroy.
« Last Edit: Thursday, May 23, 2013, 01:37:17 PM by idolminds »

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #58 on: Thursday, May 23, 2013, 02:02:57 PM »
If anything, this will increase piracy. People will be angrier than ever and without the ability to ever sell anything you once bought, I imagine many will say fuck it, not worth it, let's just hack the console and steal the shit. I don't follow that logic at all.

But hey, whatever. Maybe this will convince more people to stop wasting their fucking lives playing too many videogames. I love it as much as anyone, but it's just gotten ludicrous. We pump too much money into it even when we can't make the time to play the stuff we've bought. We don't need more of the shit. We need less. This has completely removed MS as a choice for me, so hey... awesome. Limit the playing field. That means Nintendo and MS have both disappeared for me personally, which leaves just the PC (and mostly indie games there) and the PS4. That's a lot less temptation.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline idolminds

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #59 on: Thursday, May 23, 2013, 03:36:12 PM »
Rock Paper Shotgun says some things related to this.

Offline MysterD

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #60 on: Thursday, May 23, 2013, 05:24:48 PM »
This article is the biggest pile of horseshit I've ever read.

The only way where used games become extinct on consoles and people won't mind too much (like what happens on PC here) is when they have regularly huge %-off sales the likes that Steam, Amazon DVG, Gamersgate have not too long after game's release and VERY often. There's multiple digital distributors (Steam, Amazon DVG, Gamersgate, etc)  & digital services (Steam, Origin, Capsule) here battling all of this out, on the PC side - and they're all staying afloat (for now). The competitive nature on PC here is HUGE - and part of the reason we see such aggressive price-cuts/sales.

I just don't see - if Microsoft is the only real service here in real control here monopolizing that XB1 - offering up these kind of sales that we see on the PC.
The more I look and think about this - the more XB1 consumers look screwed, to me.

EDIT:
I should also note, Valve also does other "different" experiments on Steam - like w/ TF2 Hats and the new Steam Trading Card Beta program - for even more additional ways to try to make $, just in case moving units at low prices ain't enough for them.  

Offline Cobra951

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #61 on: Thursday, May 23, 2013, 05:28:01 PM »
Rock Paper Shotgun says some things related to this.

John Walker.  I will remember his name.  That was an inspiring bit of philosophy.  By his yardstick then, I still have nearly perfect freedom.  Only once did I buy a game that requires perennial online permission, and that was a blind mistake.  Fool me once, and all that.  My resistance has not been futile.

Offline idolminds

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #62 on: Friday, May 24, 2013, 08:23:55 AM »
Is this how used games will work?
Quote
This is how we’ve been told it will all work:

A gamer walks into a retailer and hands over the game they wish to sell. This will only be possible at retailers who have agreed to Microsoft’s T&Cs and more importantly integrated Microsoft’s cloud-based Azure pre-owned system into its own.

The game is then registered as having been traded-in on Microsoft’s system. The consumer who handed it over will subsequently see the game wiped from their account – hence the until now ambiguous claim from Phil Harrison that the Xbox One would have to ‘check in’ to Microsoft’s servers every 24 hours.

The retailer can then sell the pre-owned game at whatever price they like, although as part of the system the publisher of the title in question will automatically receive a percentage cut of the sale. As will Microsoft. The retailer will pocket the rest.

Unconfirmed reports on ConsoleDeals.co.uk suggest that retail’s slice will be as little as ten per cent. That’s a significant cut from what it has become accustomed to from pre-owned sales and more in line with what they would receive from the sale of a new game – hence, the value of the pre-owned market to the retailer is effectively destroyed.
MS hasn't made this official information yet, but this is apparently what retailers are saying.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #63 on: Friday, May 24, 2013, 11:37:07 AM »
Needlessly complex. This is a fantastic opportunity for Sony to smash through. Under price the 360 and make it a point not to add convoluted rules to the used PS4 games market.

Win.

Offline MysterD

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #64 on: Saturday, May 25, 2013, 09:49:17 AM »

Offline MysterD

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Offline Cobra951

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #66 on: Tuesday, May 28, 2013, 05:05:37 PM »
That was awesome, even if the guy is more than a little strange.

Offline gpw11

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Re: Re: New Xbox
« Reply #67 on: Tuesday, May 28, 2013, 11:27:49 PM »
I can't watch it.   I actually can't stand the guy because I think he's pretty inane and pandering to the point that I have a feeling every single point he makes is probably something I've seen on Reddit in the past week.   More than  anything, though I can't watch it because I know it will make me want to play Devil's Advocate,  and I really don't want to do that.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #68 on: Wednesday, May 29, 2013, 05:19:42 AM »
why he dressed like asshole?

Offline Pugnate

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #69 on: Wednesday, May 29, 2013, 05:24:38 AM »
OK I watched half and I can't watch anymore.

You know what the problem is? These guys... that kid from Penny Arcade and this Jim Sterling... do they have business degrees? Why the hell are we listening to them talk economics? This is what is messed up about video games journalism. You have people with no qualifications, speculating out of their asses, and then raising a hellstorm from equally stupid readers who don't know what is correct.

Both of these people have opposite views and they are just talking and people are eating up their nonsense because no one knows better.

You know why publishers take the lion's share of profit? Because they invested it all. Most games are selling at losses, so obviously they deserve the profit.

What exactly is the cost of a retailer? What is their investment in a product? Who knows? Maybe for them, making $4 off a $60 video game is a good enough margin.

I am so tired of this shit.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #70 on: Wednesday, May 29, 2013, 05:29:27 AM »
So someone who works at a retailer said stores make $10 a game.

I replied:

Quote
$10 is BRILLIANT. It is absolutely brilliant. What is the investment of a store in a multimillion dollar game? Why is this a bad thing. What's wrong with you people? Why are you listening to this jackoff who knows nothing about how to run a business, talk business?

If I am running a store, and someone is placing their product there and offering 20% to me, and I am moving a large quantity of units a day, I'd be like sure, that sounds OK.

Offline Xessive

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #71 on: Wednesday, May 29, 2013, 06:43:57 AM »
Dude, I think you would like Michael Pachter, check out an episode of Pack-Attack!

Offline gpw11

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #72 on: Wednesday, May 29, 2013, 07:25:39 PM »
Oooops.  I watched it.


And again, I think he's totally fucking retarded.  Luckily, he annoying as shit personality didn't convince me to play devil's advocate, it just convinced me to point out that he went about this totally sideways and is .....well, wrong.

Killing off the used game market is bad for two groups of people:

1.) People who buy used games
2.) People who sell used games

Pretty simple, right?  Killing off the used game market is awesome for the following groups of people:

1.) Publishers
2.) Developers
3.) Hardware manufacturers

Killing off the used game market really doesn't matter to the following groups of people:

1.) People who don't buy used games
2.) Everyone else

So, taking the first set of groups into account, why in the fuck would you focus your argument on the people selling the games?  No one gives a fuck and no one SHOULD give a fuck about the sellers. They've been living the dream and they probably had opportunity to head this off, and yet didn't - like the music industry they kinda missed the boat.

His claim of $2 per game sold for a retailer is skewed. At one point I had access to the information regarding how much a retailer I worked for (not as sales staff) actually pulled in on everything in the store and Pug is right - it was a lot closer to $10 a unit. Basically, if you're a sales person for a business which sells big ticket items and pays off of commission on said items, you can basically pull a number out of the computer that is the "cost".  That's basically the minimum amount you can sell an item for and have the store "break even".   This, however, is not the actual COST of the item to the store but that's probably where his $2 figure comes from because that's what an employee on the floor sees. What it actually is is the COST of the item + the sum of the averages of all the variable costs the store predicted they would encounter whilst attempting to sell this item + the minimum amount of profit margin the store was willing to settle for. Note that in almost any other business but retail the sum of the averages of all the variable costs would be covered by overhead and profit, but in this case it was separated (double dip!).  I can't remember what the average rate on that for a video game was, as they were all segmented but item types, but it was realistically about 8-12% allocated to minimum profit margin - potentially higher because they were a price locked and sure sell item.

I remember the actual number being closer to $15 per unit of actual (arguable) profit for the store. That's a shit ton for a small item that brings people into your store on a regular basis (that's the real value for big box stores).  The reason for the $2 number is two fold - 1.) it was artificially low because the retailer didn't want to offer an item at "cost" that a lot of employees would buy regularly, 2.) in the case of video games especially, the hidden profit was quite high, as a ton of the costs usually associated in that section were actually covered by by businesses other than the retailer there (was?) also a monetizing system in place for shelf space but I don't remember a thing about it.

So, the retailers are making a fair margin for sure. They are not on actual consoles, if I remember correctly, but that was offset by the high margins on the games and especially the shelf space and marketing program that they had.

The thing is that places like Gamestop were really living the dream.  They were selling a product, making a profit on it, buying it back for below market value, and then selling the same product again above market value.  Possibly multiple times a year, times millions. And while doing so, they were driving people into their locations in order to be subjected to further marketing for more products and putting them in front of the register where they could make snap decisions to buy whatever came out new again that week. It is seriously every retailers dream a perpetual motion machine of selling the same product for money numerous times with zero liability and someone else covering at least half of the marketing.  And it was good for consumers if you want to buy a used game.  No one can argue that.

That said, it was absolutely a shit deal for publishers, developers, and hardware manufacturers and obviously, the second they CAN cut that guy out they fucking will.  And that's what you see here. No one is being evil, no one is being unfair, they're acting exactly how we should expect them to act. And I can't really blame them.

I have more to say, but this is way to long and I'm just going to stop there.











Offline idolminds

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #73 on: Wednesday, May 29, 2013, 07:50:39 PM »
I just wish there was a way to stick it to Gamestop without also sticking it to everyone else.

Offline gpw11

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #74 on: Wednesday, May 29, 2013, 08:31:29 PM »
That's the thing. I don't think it's impossible to see a scenario with Steam-like sales, although nowhere to the same extent (he's wrong on that point as well). He's certainly off base on how Steam works - they aren't having sales to compete with other online retailers.  This works a little bit differently than brick and mortar because they take a percentage cut of the price while (speculation is) that publishers are actually the ones setting prices and deciding on what's involved in a Steam Sale.  Sale discounts usually far outweigh Valve's cut of the original price, so publisher involvement is pretty much the driving force...and they're only really competing with themselves across different digital distribution systems.

I don't think it will EVER really happen the same way Steam sales do now, but it's not impossible.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #75 on: Wednesday, May 29, 2013, 10:03:19 PM »
. . .

Killing off the used game market is bad for two groups of people:

1.) People who buy used games
2.) People who sell used games

. . .

Killing off the used game market really doesn't matter to the following groups of people:

1.) People who don't buy used games
2.) Everyone else

. . .

I couldn't disagree more.  Killing off the sale of games by those who bought them should alarm everyone who believes in the concept of private property, and the first-sale doctrine that naturally derives from it.  Publishers have been hammering this licensing-not-selling fiction into our collective consciousness for, what, decades?  They couldn't complete the brainwash with legal muscle or PR, so now they're delivering the coup the grace with technology.  The power grab hurts everyone who isn't them, not just Gamestop and game buyers who like to sell off what they have already played.

Offline gpw11

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #76 on: Wednesday, May 29, 2013, 11:10:31 PM »
"The power grab hurts everyone who isn't them, not just Gamestop and game buyers who like to sell off what they have already played."

I get what you're saying, but really as far as I can see it only hurts those groups. I can't really think of any major way in which anyone else is really affected in a negative way.  Mainly because it can't set any sort of president which hasn't already been set. 


But again, don't get me wrong, I certainly don't think this is good for gamers in any way, and I think it was a horrible move for Microsoft unless Sony follows suit.  I just find it amazing that Jim Sterling took the shittiest argument against it and ran with that.

Offline Xessive

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #77 on: Thursday, May 30, 2013, 04:09:19 AM »
PC players have been suffering that for a while now. Microsoft is just bring consoles up to speed. I have so many games that I don't play anymore that I wouldn't mind pawning off. Even worse I have extra copies of games that I can't give to anyone else e.g. I have Crysis 2 (Hard copy with CD key) and Crysis 2 Maximum Edition (soft copy with different CD key in Origin) both tied to my EA/Origin account and I can't pass my Crysis 2 on to my brother or anyone.

Offline gpw11

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #78 on: Thursday, May 30, 2013, 07:28:09 PM »
Having put more thought into it, Cobra's argument is by far the best argument for convincing consumers to bypass the Xbox One.  I have no idea why Jim Sterling would bypass that in order to argue that retailers are about to experience undue hardship.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: New Xbox
« Reply #79 on: Friday, May 31, 2013, 12:41:07 PM »
Thanks for that.  Too bad the argument is going nowhere in the marketplace.  MS will push their agenda seductively, and they will sell many a crippled console, at least here in the US.  There is hope internationally.  It's Sony's game to lose now.  They have the opportunity.  All they need to do is not blow it.  If they follow Microsoft into hell, they lose their advantage.