Topic: Oh crap, I completely forgot...

[Ace_O_Spades]

...along with states like Iran who fund terrorist activities and develop nuclear weapons in spite of world demands. I don't think that anyone is worried about the UAE.

I'm 100% with Scott on this one. This isn't about cultural ignorance, it's about not getting blown up by some maniac strapped with bombs for the sake of being with 71 virgins (or whatever the number is).

My point was that lumping the entire middle east into one massive target of hate is casting a shadow on your friends and allies

oh wait, you've never had trouble stomping on your allies' toes before... why would you worry about that now?

Just don't be surprised when you wake up and the whole world hates you.

oh wait...

[Xessive]

My point was that lumping the entire middle east into one massive target of hate is casting a shadow on your friends and allies

oh wait, you've never had trouble stomping on your allies' toes before... why would you worry about that now?

Just don't be surprised when you wake up and the whole world hates you.

oh wait...

That's a great way to put it.

[scottws]

Regardless, I think the only reason the US and Israel don't want Iran to have nuclear capability is simply a matter of control. Iran gaining the technology would open up doors for the rest of the Middle-East to develop, and that means the US and Israel would no longer have the upper hand.

No, the reason we don't want Iran to have nukes is because we fear that they might be a little trigger happy, or might use their technological know-how and provide it to terrorist organizations, all of whom would be chomping at the bit to have the ability to detonate a nuclear device somewhere inside the United States.

[scottws]

My point was that lumping the entire middle east into one massive target of hate is casting a shadow on your friends and allies

oh wait, you've never had trouble stomping on your allies' toes before... why would you worry about that now?

Just don't be surprised when you wake up and the whole world hates you.

oh wait...

Man, a little inflammatory there.  It's funny you mention casting a shadow of hate unfairly and ignorantly over everyone, and then pretty much state that you hate the United States and its citizens when many members of this very board fall under that shadow.

[Ace_O_Spades]

Well, for starters, we wouldn't even be having this conversation if a handful of Middle Easterners didn't fly several planes into inanimate objects containing people, a majority of which were civilians.

Americans would be indifferent to the Middle East if this stuff didn't happen.  I honestly held no ill will or predjudice against the Middle Easterners until 9/11 and similar events that have happened since. 

Americans would be indifferent, but the Middle East would still hate you with the fiery passion of a thousand suns for your perceived injustices towards them, their religion, and their countries.

No, we wouldn't be having this discussion about 9/11 if they hadn't. We'd be discussing some other act of terrorism they inflicted on you. In their views the 9/11 strike was completely retaliatory... maybe for the bombing of Taliban camps, maybe for the absolute backing of Israel, maybe for the rightous indignation with which you go about your international affairs. Kicking in doors and fucking shit up like some dumb jock crashing a party with all his fancy toys then taking off, leaving a mess like a hurricane blew through the place.

So I don't see how the "root" of the problem is the act of 9/11... This is denying decades of history between the west and the Middle East, Israel in particular. How would you feel about a country/nation/leader that was supplying arms to your worst enemy and called you a terrorist. You'd probably be pretty friggin pissed off. You might even kick in their door and throw some bombs around so they'd give it a rest.

Cultural ignorance, xenophobia, moral entrepreneuring, and self rightousness on BOTH SIDES. The root of the problem.

[Ace_O_Spades]

Man, a little inflammatory there.  It's funny you mention casting a shadow of hate unfairly and ignorantly over everyone, and then pretty much state that you hate the United States and its citizens when many members of this very board fall under that shadow.

I don't hate most Americans... most of them are pretty good people. Just the ones who can't even recognize the bias from which they approach everything that happens outside their borders; and approach world politics with complete and utter ignorance as to how their decisions affect those in the world at large.

[scottws]

Likewise, you need to realize that our views are influenced by what happens to our country.  It's easy to sit up in Canada and act like we deserved 9/11.  Because it wasn't thousands of Candadian civilians that died that day.

While the United States government is not blameless in this matter, you need to realize that Americans are fucking pissed about 9/11 and if you do not understand that the event of course that affects our view of the world, then it is pointless to debate with you because you obviously just cannot understand where we come from.

[Ace_O_Spades]

So you attribute the acts of a few individuals who belong to a radical wing of Islam to the entire Middle East?

I just don't understand the overarching hatred of people who had nothing to do with 9/11.

If 9/11 was the act which so dramatically shaped current foreign policy... why are those responsible for 9/11 still at large? Something else is going on here... you know it. So don't sit and use 9/11 as your carte blanche for aggressive activity in the middle east. You DO have allies there.

[gpw12]

We do not question Scott here Kams.  We take guidence from him.

[Xessive]

Woah woah, I don't think anyone is here to suggest that the civilians of the WTC deserved it or say "they had it coming!" That's just F*^%ed up! Civilian casualities in any case are unforgivable. Terrorists who pull off maniacal operations involving the intentional killing of civilians should be dealt with harshly. The crap the US gov't has pulled over the years has warranted a lot resentment from numerous communities and groups, and thus justly the US gov't should be reprimanded for its behaviour as well. I think the main reason the US is generally unpopular is that it does whatever the heck it wants, with no respect for UN policies and treaties, and nobody says/does jack about it. Then comes the hypocrisy claiming "democracy," and bringing it to people all over the world. They need to stop gold-digging in other countries (in this case Black Gold).

That said, I believe the US gov't needs to stick to its borders and tend to its people.

[Ace_O_Spades]

We do not question Scott here Kams.  We take guidence from him.

The lack of questioning scares me and motivates me as opposed to deterring me.

[Xessive]

Thousands Gather Outside UN, 16 Arrested in Civil Disobedience, To Protest Bush

See! American people cannot be judged by the minority that 'governs' them! Just as we, from the Middle-East, should not not be judged by the minority of freaks who go on insane rampages!

[Ghandi]

lumping the entire middle east into one massive target of hate is casting a shadow on your friends and allies

Just don't be surprised when you wake up and the whole world hates you.

Wait, I'm confused, do people hate us or not? 

[Ghandi]

Now that I don't have to rush to class, wanted to say something. Saying that all Americans lump the middle east into a hate center or that all Americans back what Israel does etc is just as ignorant as me saying that all Muslims are terrorists. I find this double standard so often that everyone is willing to dump Americans into a bunch of ignorant assholes and argue that we do it so often, and it pisses me off. I don't get all my news from George W Bush, and I'm not force-fed news by some politically-driven machine to hate Islam, or whatever else I as an American supposedly believe. And Ace, as for your comment about "you've never had trouble stomping on your allies' toes before", this is just simply retarded. George Bush didn't lose allies by "stomping on thier toes", he lost them by being a blubbering idiot. But rest assured, if we wanted to stomp on the toes of our little northern neighbors, it would leave more than just a bruise 

[Ace_O_Spades]

Wait, I'm confused, do people hate us or not? 

You have allies, but they're slowly starting to hate you... how is it still unclear?

And Ace, as for your comment about "you've never had trouble stomping on your allies' toes before", this is just simply retarded. George Bush didn't lose allies by "stomping on thier toes", he lost them by being a blubbering idiot. But rest assured, if we wanted to stomp on the toes of our little northern neighbors, it would leave more than just a bruise

You stomp on toes all the time. Softwood lumber, mad cow, strategic missile defense, marijuana legislation. Every time we try to do something that falls outside what you think is fair, it is somehow within your economy's grasp to bully us into submission. Even when you're blatantly wrong. You choose to ignore NAFTA rulings against you and follow the ones in favour.

Threatening sanctions if our politicians don't favour certain stances on controversial issues... as was the case in the bill C-36 debate before it was killed by the election in 2003.

Ghandi, you DO stomp on our toes, and it leaves more than a bruise on our economy. It bruises the trust we have in our closest neighbours... To the point that seeing our politicians getting cosy with yours almost always hurts them in the polls. The Canadian people see what you guys do to us, and we're not happy at all... Unfortunately there's not a goddamn thing we can do about it because yes, you are the more powerful and influential country.

It still doesn't give you a right to be a complete international bully. AND THEN wonder why people dislike you.