Author Topic: A case study in internet celebrity  (Read 3019 times)

Offline PyroMenace

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A case study in internet celebrity
« on: Tuesday, June 17, 2014, 11:21:06 PM »
Warning: Most of this video is about Phil Fish, but it has some broader points to make. I found it pretty interesting.


Offline Cobra951

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Re: A case study in internet celebrity
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday, June 18, 2014, 09:42:46 AM »
It sort of explains the Kardashians?  I personally know several women who are better looking and have better things to say than any of them, yet no one knows who they are.  Fame springing out of nowhere is not just undeserved; it also baffles me.

But about Phil Fish, no, he really is an asshole.  At least he tried very hard to convince everyone that he is, and he certainly succeeded.

Edit:  I like this comment as counterpoint:

Quote from: Koza
So pretty much your whole argument boils down to "You just hate him because he's famous! :(((((".

Not like we've heard that a ton of times before. And not like that is completely wrong. But congratulations, you now have a bunch of hypocrites "feeling for" Phil, while not understanding the situation in the slightest.

Phil "Choking Hazard" Fish is hated for not having just strong opinions, but having BAD strong opinions and being extremely arrogant about them. The argument of "you haven't released a single game yet" might be faulty when trying to just accuse an aspiring dev, but when that dev speaks like a know-it-all and shrugs all criticism, along with ACTUAL COUNTERARGUMENTS against his bullshit, then it gains a lot more weight. He's also been caught making fake accounts to praise his own game - he was DESPERATE for positive attention and along with his snarky attitude, he can safely assume he probably has a low self-esteem.
Being an asshole is not the only thing you need for people to hate you. Actually, many people love assholes, look how popular House MD got, a show about AN ASSHOLE, but also an asshole that, most of the time, was RIGHT. You can be an asshole, yet accept other people's opinions if they sound reasonable enough. But if you're not just an asshole, but an arrogant asshole, you're prone to being rightfully hated.

So in the same way you're trying to defend Sarkeesian or minorities in your last seconds of video by pulling the "you just hate them because they're from a minority, not because they have dumb, ignorant opinions and ignore actual counterarguments", you're defending Phil by replacing "he's from a minority" with "he's famous". Your whole premise is faulty, yet you're wasting nearly 20 minutes of everyone's time trying to prove it right.

Offline PyroMenace

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Re: A case study in internet celebrity
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday, June 18, 2014, 10:39:24 AM »
Haha, yea I don't know. He's a ragenaut on the internet... how many of those do you know? He's said dumb shit, but he can also have reasonable points, and I've witnessed him be cool about things, in interviews and even joking around with the guys on GB. If anything I'd say that guys counter-argument really just reiterated everything in the video and further made his point.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: A case study in internet celebrity
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday, June 18, 2014, 12:04:59 PM »
Ragenaut  :D  Great new word.

I could have overlooked most of Phil's bile if he hadn't abandoned his post.  Punishing everyone for the sins of a few takes the whole thing far beyond caustic talk, and leaves no doubt about his hateful nature.

Retroactive edit:
Quote from: gpw
No one likes the guy who picks the ball up and goes home.

Quote of the day.
« Last Edit: Thursday, June 19, 2014, 09:07:07 AM by Cobra951 »

Offline gpw11

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Re: A case study in internet celebrity
« Reply #4 on: Thursday, June 19, 2014, 12:39:05 AM »
I don't want to be too much of a dick here, but that guy is a film school major who just took twenty fucking minutes to cover what he should have said in three.  The other 16-17 minutes added very little and pretty much did nothing to substantiate his unsubstantiatable claim that we hate Phil Fish because he's famous OR that we only hate him because we're exposed to him because he's famous.  Sure, whatever, I actaually don't know which point he was trying to make because he spent most of the time trying to explain to me simple concepts of social interaction and interpretation (that I don't think he really gets). In either case, those two things aren't really the same at all.

Here's a really easy way to tell if the average person forms an opinion of someone based on whether or not the subject of the opinion is famous:   Does the judgement maker hate everyone famous, or just dislike some famous people?   Oh, really?  Only some famous people?  I wonder if that's because, like most people, there are famous people who have likeable personalities and then famous people who have unlikeable personalities?  Nah, that'd be waaaay too simple.

Look, you can't argue that Phil Fish has an unlikeable personality.  He's quick to fire from the hip, can't take it in return, and is a whiner.  These are traits that we, as an entire society tend to either frown upon, especially when coupled with a level of cockiness such as that featured in Phil Fish, or pity to a certain degree. Combined with what we percieve as arrogance it rubs people the wrong way and it makes them want to nudge the guy next to us and whisper "Hey, fuck this guy. Amiright?" and then make fun of him the next day.  Fame doesn't really come into it, except in the case of Phil Fish, he's making his jackass comments in front of millions of people instead of a handful.

The guy making the video seems to forget halfway through that Phil Fish isn't even really famous for Fez - he's famous for being a vitriolic jackass who just happened to have an audience because he made Fez.  Sure, to a certain extent the guy pretends like that's the point of the video, but then goes on to say at a later point that we only really dislike Phil's personality because he's famous and we want to make a subtle and symbolical comment on the state of WHATEVER THE FUCK through our dislike of him.  I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that's not the case because A.) Only art school and lit majors think that this is ever a thing.  The average person doesn't think this way, and B.) He never really addresses what we apparently want to symbolically lash out against.

I think at some point he was trying to say that Phil Fish didn't want this kind of exposure and maybe we'd be just as bad if we were put under the microscope, but lets not kid ourselves, that's really not true - hence why people like to lash out against Phil Fish:  His personality is grating, he has what we perceive as too high of an opinion of himself, and he doesn't have a diplomatic or charismatic bone in his body.   Sure, there are other people just as bad and worse out there, but that's besides the point - no one on the face of the earth is saying that Phil Fish is the BIGGEST asshole, we're just saying he's an asshole.

Near the end of the video the guy makes a point where the whole process is self-defeating, we hold people on a pedestal and then hate them for being there. Besides it being a really weak argument, it's also dumb as shit and easily disprovable.  Sure, SOME very famous people are held in disdain for their fame, but the majority are not.  I don't know why this guy thinks it's a universal formula because of Fish and Nickelback or why he thinks anyone gave a shit about Fish before they knew he was an asshole, but his whole theory just doesn't work.

Here's the thing, although media outlets might be cherry-picking Fish's comments for stories (which is completely understandable), his image wasn't actually created by this cherry picking but by the opposite - his access to the public directly.  No one was following the guy around editing his days and showing us the result, we were just seeing what he deemed an appropriate thing to say and we judged him on that - the stream of consciousness that he put out there of his own accord.  And that's where the ball started rolling.  Sure, we judge him based on a few select instances, but that's the exact same metric we judge literally everyone else out there - famous or not. And Phil still comes out looking like more of an asshole than the majority.  SOME of the time he is reasonable, not a complete jackass, and not controversial - great man, why to be not abrasive some of the time.  Guess what, you still get judged based on all the times you are abrasive.

I don't know what the overall motivation for this was (actually, I think I do, but whatever). End of the day, Phil Fish's problems are all a direct result of Phil Fish's actions - he's not getting a bum rap here.  Oh, he was all of a sudden put in the "subcultures" spotlight? So are thousands of others, many more so than Fish, and they all seem to deal with it swimmingly or at least unremarkably. Oh, we judge him based on a few instances?  Yeah, that's entirely how we judge people.

 Phil Fish could have just kept his mouth shut and done his thing. Phil Fish could have just censored himself.  Phil Fish could have seen the backlash, realized where the problem was and adjusted.  Phil Fish could have done a dozen things, instead he played the part of the kid who runs his mouth all day and is surprised when someone says something back and everyone else backs them. Phil Fish then picked the ball up and went home.

No one likes the guy who picks the ball up and goes home.  Not necessarily because of the action of picking the ball up and going home, but because they're the type of guy who would fucking do that, and they were always that type of guy.  And that's why so many people disliked Phil Fish from the start.


But don't get me wrong - I did like watching that, I just don't agree with it at all.


 

Offline PyroMenace

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Re: A case study in internet celebrity
« Reply #5 on: Thursday, June 19, 2014, 02:02:14 AM »
Yea, when you can sum that whole video up, it seems to come pretty obvious but I do like how he articulates it. I will say as to why he possibly made it, or at least why I found it interesting is that... well I guess I'll pull this quote from you.

"no one on the face of the earth is saying that Phil Fish is the BIGGEST asshole, we're just saying he's an asshole."

Which is completely right, but the internet scum, like the bottom of the barrel scum which seems to amplify a 100 fold over social media, fixates on shit like this. Like obsessively on a scary level, and I sometimes go down these rabbit holes observing this behavior being baffled and fascinated. Like the Chris Chan case, or some of these "Let's play" personalities on youtube. Take DarkSydPhil for example, dude is a bit of a raging asshole and I sort of feel hes gotten way worse because he keeps interacting and fighting with these creeps, but you can find just hordes of videos, just people putting in time and effort to make video blog responses, making montages of comments, digging up all this shit on this guy to tear him down.... a guy who just enjoys playing video games, recording them, and making stupid childish jokes about them. And again, I used to skim through Kman's forum from time to time years ago, and found this one thread completely dedicated to posting about this one particular user they had, much like the Chris Chan thing, just hundreds of pages long completely destroying the dude.

So yea, the video doesn't encompass everyone famous, it mentions Nickleback as an example to Phil Fish's particular case as a concept, not as a example of fame. Also he's famous in the gaming social sphere, which is where much of this toxic behavior I mentioned comes from.

Offline Xessive

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Re: A case study in internet celebrity
« Reply #6 on: Thursday, June 19, 2014, 08:51:01 AM »
That was profoundly enlightening.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: A case study in internet celebrity
« Reply #7 on: Thursday, June 19, 2014, 11:17:48 AM »
Didn't watch the video, but I'm with Pyro's general assessment. People on the Internet spend a ridiculous amount of effort on hate. If anything has made me lose complete faith in humanity, it's been the Internet. I don't care how much of an asshole somebody is, the kinds of smear-hate campaigns these people wage are unjustified in any conceivable context.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline Cobra951

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Re: A case study in internet celebrity
« Reply #8 on: Thursday, June 19, 2014, 11:43:16 AM »
I agree with you on general principles.  But Phil Fish is still a scathing, raging asshole, regardless of the internet's worst traits.

Edit:  As if on cue.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: A case study in internet celebrity
« Reply #9 on: Friday, June 20, 2014, 10:47:16 AM »
I actually agree with him on that one.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野