There is no moral equivalence here. We are fighting a war that was declared on us no differently than Pearl Harbor got the US fully into World War 2.
We pursue combatants, not innocents. Innocents may die unintentionally, as they do in any war. But you know what, you fucking prick? I don't give a rat's ass about anyone who collaborates or sympathizes with any of those rag-headed bastards who are trying to send the world back 10 centuries with an Islamic apocalypse. Teheran should be a radioactive crater right fucking now. That's the epicenter of this departure from humanity, and like the tumor that it is, it needs to be burned off ASAP, before any more cancerous growth spreads to places where real human beings are trying to live and breathe.
So tell me, what do you think about how much I value one American vs one motherfucking rag-headed Islamo-fascist animal now?
I don't even have anything else to say. I hear you say the same things over and over again, and I honestly don't hear anything but one-sided bias. For instance - I'm not a bible thumper. I'm not a fear monger. I'm only half conservative. But because I completely disagree with you half the time, that makes me a conservative, fear mongering bible thumper. That shit don't fly with me, nor does your blind loyalty to your own country, which is just as sad as anyone's blind loyalty to any country.
The fact is, those people that died in the 9/11 tragedy were not the government. They were fucking people. And anybody that wants to play devil's advocate with that can go fuck themselves. Say what you want about the government and the American way of life, but fuck you if you don't acknowledge that it was a tragedy that deserves every bit of this outrage. I have no love for my own government. I don't vote because I think the whole American political system is a complete sham. But if you want me to say that the radical Islamic war machine is anything other than a group of terrorist dogs who should be shot in the street, you're looking in the wrong place.
I'm done with this conversation. Completely. I don't need to aggravate myself any further about a subject nobody gives enough of a shit about to even get their fucking facts straight.
EDIT - I don't think that qualifies as "losing it", do you? Maybe it does. I don't know. I lost my job because of 9/11 as well (absolutely directly - I worked for United), and was unemployed for 7 months because of it. And I actually liked that job, unlike the shit I do now.
Oh, no doubt it is real. I'm just saying the way its been conducted so far. I know some guys that are in Afghanistan and Iraq... they said it's pretty sad and pathetic that basically the US hasn't done much more than destroy half the signs of civilization there. From what I understand, they went in to Afghanistan, got the Taliban out but still left the place fucked up.
Look at it this way: The Roman Empire would have sacked, pillaged, and burned all signs of civilization. Then they would have salted the earth to keep anything from growing. All you have to do is look at Japan and what was West Germany, to see what America does after it wins a war, and the people there embrace the new reality. That's the key that's missing here. We still have people bombing and shooting at us.
I am also not saying "people smashing two planes full of civilians into two buildings containing civilians is anything like dropping a bomb on a guerilla base that results in civilian casualties" are the same. HOWEVER, a cruise missile that misses its target and hits a hospital, school, or other public building, killing no guerillas, but killing dozens of civillians is at least ideologically the same.I disagree. It's not like we were like (as far as I know), "Let's blow up this hospital and school." As far as I know, anytime that happened, it was a situation where there was a mistake in targetting made, or there was the belief that the building was used as a base of operations.
Especially in war. As people have stated, in war, civillian casualties will ensue... the WTC was an extremely viable target; it delivered a serious blow to the economic activity in the United States with far reaching effects. That would be an objective of someone at war with you. Just as the targeting of communication centers and transportation routes in Iraq and Afghanistan were viable... resulting in civillian casualties.This would be the first I've ever heard of a purely economic target being hit in "war" and I would not have considered us to be at a state of war when 9/11 happened.
Afghanistan/Taliban was exactly doing something against those responsible. Iraq was stupidity incarnate. Bush is most certainly an idiot. Iraq was not aligned with radical Islamic ideologies, and had a very strong government to suppress them. We killed that, and now we have to do the job ourselves. The next place to go was Iran. Look at them now. King of the hill, practically unopposed, openly calling for the destruction of the West, and working on nuclear technology. Way to go Mr Bush.
But the war on Islamic fascism is very real, regardless of the obtuse blunders of the worst American president in my lifetime.
Kams, if you want to say that the United States did something to provoke a response, that's one thing, but to play it like the Unites States almost deserved what happened 9/11 is absolutely ridiculous. No country or populace deserves to have civilians directly targeted in such a manner.
You guys are gonna pin me as a mad conspiracy theorist, but I believe that the US government orchestrated that attack. I see a lot of similarities with the Reichstag fire, which incidentally led to Germany's change from democracy to dictatorship, consequently initiating Hitler's rise to power. My point is that no one really knows who started the fire, but the communists were the 'usual suspect.'
You guys are gonna pin me as a mad conspiracy theorist, but I believe that the US government orchestrated that attack.Yep, duly pinned. :P
Yea well it is a strange coincidence that they trained both Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden to do war, and then eventually they both became enemies to the USA.That's true. In fact Osama was trained under the CIA. That's kinda why I'm going with the conspiracy. Besides that if Al-Qaeda did in fact commit the WTC incident, then they woulda announced it and taken credit for it. That's generally what they do. I'm not siding with Al-Qaeda, I just don't believe they exclusively did it. I'm just saying there seems to be a lot more evidence supporting US government involvement.
Saddam was trained to help fight against Iran while Bin Laden was to fight against the Russians in Afghanistan.
The world sucks and we're all going to hell. Might as well enjoy shooting each other while we have the opportunity, right?
...
Sorry, I'm drunk. And full of anger.
That's true. In fact Osama was trained under the CIA. That's kinda why I'm going with the conspiracy. Besides that if Al-Qaeda did in fact commit the WTC incident, then they woulda announced it and taken credit for it. That's generally what they do. I'm not siding with Al-Qaeda, I just don't believe they exclusively did it. I'm just saying there seems to be a lot more evidence supporting US government involvement.
In all fairness, I can't really place any judgement on this matter, considering it's not my country or anything involving me whatsoever. Still, I feel a lot of sympathy for the victims.
Until one day he realized how wrong it was, and killed his masters. He then went to Gotham City where Bruce Wayne took him under his wing and he became the new batgirl!
haha that was pretty much Cassandra Cain's story. I guess her and Saddam chose different paths.What? What happened? She left to become the head of the assassin's guild?
Too bad she isn't batgirl anymore. That's the problem with comics... they change stuff around too much.
You guys are gonna pin me as a mad conspiracy theorist, but I believe that the US government orchestrated that attack. I see a lot of similarities with the Reichstag fire, which incidentally led to Germany's change from democracy to dictatorship, consequently initiating Hitler's rise to power. My point is that no one really knows who started the fire, but the communists were the 'usual suspect.'
The fact that so many people, especially Americans, actually buy into the conspiracies, which are complete bullshit, still baffles me. Especially the one about the rocket hitting the Pentagon. Where the fuck did all the people go? To neverland? Plus they say that it justifies us going to war. Trust me, if we want to go to war, we will, no matter what anyone says. I mean, the UN disagreed with us going into Iraq, and we basically said "fuck off". Not to mention the fact that, if this was some huge conspiracy to justify the war on terror, you would think that we would have a better plan. Hell, we used Saddam as a tool to forget the fact that we can't get Osama.Perhaps, I mean anything is plausible nowadays. Regradless a "War on Terror" is a retarded concept. You can't challenge complex ideologies and abstract concepts physically! It's like having a "War on Hate" you can't fight ideas with bullets!!
My idea of what the US gov't should do is deal with its own issues and specific threats to itself. Afterall it's not the world police. They need to focus on the American people for change.Well, there really wasn't a "war on terror" until a bunch of fanatical people decided to kill thousands of Americans by smashing our planes into things. Remember that.
Well, there really wasn't a "war on terror" until a bunch of fanatical people decided to kill thousands of Americans by smashing our planes into things. Remember that.Don't get me wrong, I'm all for justified retaliation. The US would have every right to strike back at anyone who trangresses on it, but solid proof needs to be provided. In the case of Iraq, the whole point of going into Iraq was the US gov't supposedly had evidence of the presence and production of weapons of mass destruction. No weapons or evidence of the production of such weapons were ever found. The gov't then claims it was because of faulty intelligence. The fact that they would go to a fullscale war over flimsy information is completely reckless. Especially when you think of the finances that go into funding a war. If I were a US citizen I'd be pretty pissed off with my gov't.
Yeah, I realize these were supposedly retalitory strikes for our evil country stepping foot on the holy soil of Saudi Arabia, but the point stands that we were not truly at war with anyone in the Middle East (except Saddam, I guess) until 9/11 happened.
However I think what Pug was trying to say earlier is that the US gov't should take responsibility somehow, and it should be more considerate of the consequences of its actions. Going haphazardly into war isn't exactly a good idea.
Hahahaha. Not laughing at that, but just the fact that the last thing that this administration, at least in it's current form, would ever do is admit that it did wrong. I completley agree that they should take responsibility, but unfortunatley it takes an adult to admit that they did wrong, and our current president is a child that does no wrong.Hehe Curious George does have his flaws :P But yeah I get you, there'd be too much pride and credibility at stake for them to come forward after all they'd already done.
The US activities in our side of the world haven't exactly boosted the US image. Given their track record, they come off as the 'bad guys' nowadays.No offense, but there are many Americans that feel the same way about the entire Middle East.
No offense, but there are many Americans that feel the same way about the entire Middle East.I know, and I'm not denying anything, but in contrast Middle Eastern Gov'ts aren't sending military expeditions out to the US. Any attacks or terrorist activities going on are not "official" and do not represent the majority of the people. In the case of the US, it's the United States Government that's moving in, and is also funding and supporting the Israeli regime which is actually terrorist. Under ideal circumstances governments represent their people. As an Arab I know better than to blame people or associate them with their government's activities. It would be ignorant to judge people by the minority.
No offense, but there are many Americans that feel the same way about the entire Middle East.
This is the root of the problem... cultural insecurity mixed with xenophobia... mixed with almost complete ignorance of other cultures and their peoples.Exactly, there are several nations in the Middle East (specifically in the Arabian Gulf) that are allied with US, with the notion of prosperity and development. In my eyes it's the politics that screw everything up.
The ENTIRE middle east includes states like the UAE who are by and large allies of the USA.
This is the root of the problem... cultural insecurity mixed with xenophobia... mixed with almost complete ignorance of other cultures and their peoples.I totally disagree that this is the root of the problem. A problem? Sure, I can accept that. But the root cause? No fucking way.
The ENTIRE middle east includes states like the UAE who are by and large allies of the USA.
I totally disagree that this is the root of the problem. A problem? Sure, I can accept that. But the root cause? No fucking way.
The ENTIRE middle east includes states like the UAE who are by and large allies of the USA.
...along with states like Iran who fund terrorist activities and develop nuclear weapons in spite of world demands. I don't think that anyone is worried about the UAE.
I'm 100% with Scott on this one. This isn't about cultural ignorance, it's about not getting blown up by some maniac strapped with bombs for the sake of being with 71 virgins (or whatever the number is).
My point was that lumping the entire middle east into one massive target of hate is casting a shadow on your friends and alliesThat's a great way to put it.
oh wait, you've never had trouble stomping on your allies' toes before... why would you worry about that now?
Just don't be surprised when you wake up and the whole world hates you.
oh wait...
Regardless, I think the only reason the US and Israel don't want Iran to have nuclear capability is simply a matter of control. Iran gaining the technology would open up doors for the rest of the Middle-East to develop, and that means the US and Israel would no longer have the upper hand.No, the reason we don't want Iran to have nukes is because we fear that they might be a little trigger happy, or might use their technological know-how and provide it to terrorist organizations, all of whom would be chomping at the bit to have the ability to detonate a nuclear device somewhere inside the United States.
My point was that lumping the entire middle east into one massive target of hate is casting a shadow on your friends and alliesMan, a little inflammatory there. It's funny you mention casting a shadow of hate unfairly and ignorantly over everyone, and then pretty much state that you hate the United States and its citizens when many members of this very board fall under that shadow.
oh wait, you've never had trouble stomping on your allies' toes before... why would you worry about that now?
Just don't be surprised when you wake up and the whole world hates you.
oh wait...
Well, for starters, we wouldn't even be having this conversation if a handful of Middle Easterners didn't fly several planes into inanimate objects containing people, a majority of which were civilians.
Americans would be indifferent to the Middle East if this stuff didn't happen. I honestly held no ill will or predjudice against the Middle Easterners until 9/11 and similar events that have happened since.
Man, a little inflammatory there. It's funny you mention casting a shadow of hate unfairly and ignorantly over everyone, and then pretty much state that you hate the United States and its citizens when many members of this very board fall under that shadow.
We do not question Scott here Kams. We take guidence from him.
lumping the entire middle east into one massive target of hate is casting a shadow on your friends and allies
Just don't be surprised when you wake up and the whole world hates you.
Wait, I'm confused, do people hate us or not?
And Ace, as for your comment about "you've never had trouble stomping on your allies' toes before", this is just simply retarded. George Bush didn't lose allies by "stomping on thier toes", he lost them by being a blubbering idiot. But rest assured, if we wanted to stomp on the toes of our little northern neighbors, it would leave more than just a bruise