I was thinking the same thing, but more along the lines of "Well, being rated AO will have no effect on sales because they would have been zero anyway."
first off, banning a game outright is ridiculous. i'm sure the content is no worse than what you see in saw or hostel - but the fact that it's a computer game, and "games are for kids", means that adults aren't allowed to play this. ridiculous. why should a game, that is clear in it's content, be banned? surely the adult consumer has the right to make up their own mind.
This is strange to me, because it seems like the "M" rating is a lot different than the "M" rating 10, even 5 years ago. Obviously graphics have gotten a lot better and likewise violence has gotten more realistic/vivid, but 5 years ago the number of games using the word "fuck" or showing nudity you could count on one hand. When San Andreas came out, I was surprised it managed an "M," seeing as every other word was "fuck" or "nigger," let alone everything else that was already a part of the GTA series that pushed the envelope. A lot of shit passes for "Mature" now. How bad can this game really be?
the US version of what's going on is stupid because of the fact that most stores won't sell AO games. how do they expect ratings systems to work, when stores refuse to stock products that have been rated appropriately? stores need to actively support the ratings by providing games for adult consumers, instead of forcing developers into watering down adult content to get it passed off as something less. as for the actual rating of the game as AO, i think it's a good move. this game plainly isn't for children.This is a major problem. There should be a game store, in which you must show your ID to enter the store period -- and, yes, you have to be over 21. It's like going to a club, in which you have be 21+ to enter the club.
Sony, Nintendo forbid AO-rated Manhunt 2Oh, so basically -- no console games will ever get an AO-rating and accept it, basically??!!?
Console-makers confirm policies preventing licensed third parties from releasing Adults Only games on their systems, effectively banning the Rockstar title.
By Brendan Sinclair, GameSpot
Posted Jun 20, 2007 2:37 pm PT
When Take-Two Interactive yesterday confirmed that the Entertainment Software Rating Board handed down a rating of AO for Adults Only for Rockstar Games' Manhunt 2 on the PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable, and Nintendo Wii, the publisher said it was exploring its options.
GameSpot has confirmed with Nintendo and Sony that one of those options, which would be to accept the ESRB's judgment and release the game with the AO rating, isn't an option at all. Both companies forbid licensed third-party publishers from releasing games rated AO for Adults Only on their various hardware platforms. Though Manhunt 2 isn't slated for any of Microsoft's systems, the company has also confirmed that it does not allow AO-rated titles on the Xbox or Xbox 360.
The sole exception to this rule was in 2005 when the already released Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas was retroactively rated AO, at which point retailers pulled it from shelves and Take-Two suspended production of the game.
"It's currently our policy not to allow the playback of AO-rated content on our systems," a Sony spokesperson told GameSpot.
Nintendo's official line was much the same. "Games made for Nintendo systems enjoy a broad variety of styles, genres, and ratings," a representative told GameSpot. "These are some of the reasons our Wii and Nintendo DS systems appeal to such a broad range of people. But as with books, television, and movies, different content is meant for different audiences. That's why the ESRB provides ratings to help consumers understand the content of a game before they purchase it. As stated on Nintendo.com, Nintendo does not allow any AO-rated content on its systems."
Take-Two's most readily available alternatives are to appeal the ESRB's AO rating or to modify the game. As of press time, a Rockstar Games representative had not responded to GameSpot's inquiry about how either move would impact the game's scheduled July 10 release date.
Well blame that on Wal-Mart.
Manhunt 2 Wii Reviewed
19-Jun-2007 Article: Excerpts from NGamer's glowing review
35 Comments
By now you should know that the BBFC has refused to rate Rockstar's Manhunt 2 on Wii and PS2, meaning that it can't be legally supplied anywhere in the UK. The game was due to be released in a few weeks and UK Nintendo mag NGamer has the exclusive Wii review. CVG picks apart its review of the game you'll now never play.
NGamer's review opens with: "We're certainly not of the opinion that Wii is a family-friendly box piping Nintendo goodness directly into the living rooms of grannies and toddlers around the country. Given the number of times we've strangled for pennies in The Godfather and kneecapped for fun in Resi 4, we have bloody and conclusive evidence to the contrary. Nintendo has long since stopped beating third-party developers with its censor-stick.
"But this... we can't help but be slightly taken aback by its appearance on a Nintendo console. Not surprised, and certainly not shocked, but perhaps a little - excited? - to see the bright white Wii menu fade into the darkness of what is indisputably the most gruesome videogame we've ever played on any platform."
The magazine labels Manhunt 2 as "one of the best games on Wii" citing the astonishing level of brutality is an integral part of the experience. And it's the brutality of the game that the BBFC took into account before effectively banning its release. It says the game "would involve a range of unjustifiable harm risks, to both adults and minors."
The Wii version obviously takes the murdering side of things to the extreme with the motion controlled interface, and this element is undoubtedly the main reason most people would have liked to have picked up the Wii version. "...holding the A button starts to wind up an execution," says the mag. "An icon appears in the corner of the screen, showing a simple Nunchuk or remote motion, which you must copy to initiate the killing."
The review then goes on to explain, "Each execution has several stages, activated by a chopping motion, or a prod, or a slam to the floor, or a sawing movement" and "executions are much more physical with the Wii controls, and we found we felt more immersed in the game world in general thanks to them."
NGamer calls it one of the best-looking games on Wii to date before summing up: "A lot of people are going to be offended by it, for its copious violence and occasional sex scene, and somebody, somewhere is going to get a shock when they walk in on a friend laterally bisecting a hunter's head with realistic sawing motions. Manhunt 2 is what Wii's parental controls are for. The sticker on the box says it's for over 18s only and, believe us, it's not wrong.
"We've deliberately avoided talking about the game's more grisly excesses because these things are best discovered for yourself. You'll wince, you'll jump, you may even laugh at times, but we can guarantee you'll never forget it." The magazine gave the Wii version an impressive 92%.
Gavin Ogden
Nintendo I can almost sort of understand (except that there are other crazy violent games like RE4 on the Wii), but Sony? What the hell? I'm very curious to see how Rockstar is going to handle this.Agreed.
And that's rather disappointing. I didn't have any great desire to go run out and grab Manhunt 2Me neither.
...But it's a shame that adults aren't considered a viable part of the gaming market.I agree w/ this statement. It must be insulting to adults. It's like they ain't even considered as actual gamers. And yeah -- I'm sure there are plenty of adults that do actually play video games, these day and age.
GSpot has a nice preview (http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/action/manhunt2/news.html?sid=6172967&tag=topslot;title;1&om_act=convert&om_clk=topslot). It actually sounds pretty cool... I'm interested. Will be very interesting to see where this all goes.
EDIT - Heh, and here's an interview with Vince Desi about the whole thing (http://www.gamespot.com/news/6172928.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=multimodule&tag=multimodule;picks;story;2), Desi being the head dude over at Running With Scissors, the Postal guys. He's kind of an ass, as you may remember from before when I interviewed him over at AOG, but he seems less like an idiot now. I think they've finally stopped putting quite so much up front since they don't feel they have to shock everyone quite as much. Anyway, nothing super amazing, but sort of interesting anyhow.
Hehe I'm just interested to see why it got AO to start with!
i think it has to do with the wii actions. when you saw someone in half, you actually do the sawing motion. manhunt's pretty creative in the way that you off people, so i can imagine that the reenactment of these motions in a real world way went a long way to getting it it's AO and banned statuses.I agree w/ that 100%.
I had heard there was going to be a Manhunt 2, but I had no idea when.I need to find me a copy of the original Manhunt for the PC.
I really liked the first one. Just like with all my other single player games, I never finished it, but I did nejoy it a lot. It's one of those games I keep telling myself I'll go back and play all the way through. I actually rented it from Gamefly, and liked it enough that I went out and bought it. The game's basic mechanics were good, but it felt a little clumsy. but the kill scenes and suspense of sneaking up on people made it so much fun. It was a case of the violence alone making it worth the purchase, just like how it's worth seeing a bad horror movie if it's got good death scenes. (Final Destination)
What sucks for me is that right now I don't have themoney to buy the game, let alone an Xbox 360 (since an AO version won't be on Wii or PS3, I'm assuming it's coming to 360). The game will probably fall off the radar and become impossible to find by the time I could get my hands on it.I don't think Microsoft allows for AO games on their consoles, either.
Rockstar "proud" of Manhunt 2
Ellie Gibson 09:42 (BST) 29/06/2007
Publisher defends controversial title
In a message of thanks issued to its supporters, Rockstar has defended controversial title Manhunt 2 and argued that games should be judged in the same way as other forms of media.
An email sent out by Rockstar reads, "We wanted to thank everyone who has taken the time to contact us about Manhunt 2.
"We are very proud of Manhunt 2 and believe it builds on what the team accomplished with the first title in the series. The game was developed as a horror experience, and to be an M rated title, aligning it with similar horror content created in other forms of media.
"Unlike many other people, we do not think videogames should be singled out for special treatment from the authorities. We hope to have more information for you soon, but in the meantime, we wanted you to know how much we value all of your messages of support."
Manhunt 2 was due to be published on PSP, PS2 and Wii. It has been banned from sale in the UK and Ireland, and given an Adults Only rating in the United States - which means neither Sony or Nintendo will allow the game to be released for their consoles.
As a result, Rockstar last week announced it would be temporarily suspending plans to publish the game.
"The game was developed as a horror experience, and to be an M rated title, aligning it with similar horror content created in other forms of media."I think from what we have read in previews and heard about the game, it probably does deserve the AO rating, myself.
...... you know, it seems to me like this would qualify as an NC-17 if it were rated like other forms of the media. I mean, the entire thing is built around the concept of sneaking up on people and killing them in the most brutal way you can....and acting that out (on the wii at least). Beyond that, lets not fuck around here; they don't wish it was rated differently, they just wish that walmart would sell their game and Sony and nintendo would support it. It's a really grey line to say exactly how M and AO line up when compaired to R and NC-17.
And lets not be stupid...interactivity should play a part if you want to have any sort of legitimate rating system.I agree -- especially if you have to immitate "Realistic" motions w/ the Wii.
Rockstar isn't fighting for the little guy or trying to do anything profound here, they're just trying to cover their own asses.I think they're just trying to get their product out, as it is, basically.
If anyone really wanted to adress the issues this brings up they'd talk about how their should be an avenue to enable legitimate buyers to easily purchase these games and try to get people to convince sony and nintendo to support them.Agreed.
Take-Two: Manhunt 2 will be published
Publisher states that it 'will do whatever we need to do' to bring the banned UK and US title to market, slams the US ratings system.
By Emma Boyes, GameSpot UK
Posted Jul 9, 2007 6:36 pm PT
The would-be publisher of violent stealth-action game Manhunt 2 has vowed to release the controversial title following its outright banning in the UK and its de facto banning in the US. Take-Two Interactive executives said the company stood by the title, which it called "art," and promised it would eventually see a release.
Take-Two chairman Strauss Zelman stressed that he believed the company took its social responsibility very seriously. "We also have hundreds of extraordinarily talented people who have worked on this title for three years, and supporting their creative vision and bringing it to consumers as unvarnished and unchanged as possible is crucial to us," he said during the call.
The chairman added that Take-Two subsidiary Rockstar Games, which publishes Manhunt and the Grand Theft Auto series, sees itself as a producer of games rated M for Mature. However, Zelman did say Take-Two would stand by its game, even if it bore the dreaded AO for Adults Only rating. "We don't see ourselves in the Adults Only business," he told analysts listening to the call. "Having said that, if we find ourselves in the Adults Only business, it would be because we have a title that we consider art and entertainment, that we consider if appropriately labelled AO, and that we would like to bring to market."
Zelman also was critical of the American rating system, where the game received an Adults Only rating from the Entertainment Software Ratings Board, a certificate intended to ensure that products don't make it into the hands of those under 18. However, the majority of major retailers refuse to stock adult only rated products, and Sony and Nintendo also refuse to allow AO rated games on to their consoles.
The chairman pondered, "What is the purpose of a rating if it means effectively that a title cannot be released?...Having a rating that we don't think is appropriate is one issue, obviously, and a separate issue would be if we feel the rating is appropriate and we can't bring it to market…that seems somewhat nonsensical."
Rockstar Appeals BBFC Ban of Manhunt 2
At the 11th hour, Rockstar opts to appeal.
By Andrew Hayward, 08/01/2007
On June 19th, the British Board of Film Classification kick-started the Manhunt 2 drama by banning the title in the United Kingdom, which then led to its AO rating in the States, its subsequent banning from Nintendo and Sony, and even some admitted self-censoring by developers of other violent titles.
Rockstar Games had been given six weeks to appeal the decision, and with that opportunity about to expire, the company lodged its formal appeal yesterday, according to MCV. The appeal was filed with the Video Appeals Committee, which can overturn the BBFC decision. As noted in our first article about the ban, the VAC overturned the BBFC's ban of Carmageddon back in 1997, giving Rockstar a glimmer of hope in its current situation.
The next step in the process is for a hearing to be scheduled, at which the BBFC and Rockstar will be given the opportunity to deliver arguments and demonstrate the game. No word yet on if a similar appeal has been (or will be) filed with the ESRB in North America, but based on the previous chain of events, we wouldn't be surprised if such an appeal popped up within days.
GC 07: Factor 5 finds ESRB ratings 'bizarre'
Lair-maker president says that the industry needs a more realistic ratings system, is "very concerned" by Manhunt 2 ban, and thinks games need more sex.
By Emma Boyes, GameSpot UK
Posted Aug 20, 2007 3:15 am PT
LEIPZIG, Germany--A prominent developer has blasted the American Entertainment Software Rating Board, saying he thinks its ratings system "absolutely bizarre."
Julian Eggebrecht, the president of Factor 5, came to that opinion while trying to get a T for Teen rating for his company's forthcoming dragon fighter, Lair for the PlayStation 3. In order to do this, the San Rafael, California-based studio went through a process with the ESRB over "weeks and months," where it tweaked every bit of the game that the ratings body wanted it to.
Eggebrecht said, "You can set up to 5,000 people on fire, and they run around and scream, and that's fine because there's no blood." The executive was not impressed with the games rating system in the US and called it "problematic." He added, "It's a flat-out bizarre system, and I think it has no relation to what is happening in other media." He gave examples of violent movies such as Bonnie and Clyde, Natural Born Killers, and A Clockwork Orange.
Eggebrecht outlined how he and his colleagues across the Atlantic were "very concerned" that Manhunt 2 was banned in the UK by the British Board of Film Classification. "An outright banning cannot happen [in the US], " he told the delegates at the conference, "That Manhunt 2 got banned in the UK... It's a very scary development."
He said that he understood that the problem with the game, although he hadn't played it himself, was that because the gamer played as the protagonist, who during the game commits a series of gruesome murders, the player would be identifying with him in an "even more satisfying way" than Stanley Kubrick or Anthony Burgess would have envisaged with A Clockwork Orange. However, "People want to push the envelope and push the artistic impressions and the artistic content of games. If they're allowed to do it in movies, why aren't they allowed to do it in games?"
Eggebrecht also says that he wants to see more sex in games. He told the audience, "Games do not have sex and there is something wrong with that because it says essentially that games are what children play."
Well, supposedly the publisher said they were going to make it available without making cuts. Maybe they're just going to stick to a PC release?
Nah, they spent to much time making this for the Wii. I think with a little bit of pressure, Nintendo will crack and release it. What would be a better way to shake the "kiddy image" than to release a AO rated game?
Parents can’t trust a rating system that doesn’t even disclose how they come to a particular rating. The ESRB and Rockstar should end this game of secrecy by immediately unveiling what content has been changed to grant the new rating and what correspondence occurred between the ESRB and Rockstar to come to this conclusion. Unfortunately, history shows that we must be quite skeptical of these two entities.They immediately throw "parents" in there. Always making this sound like a game for children when neither M or AO means the game is for kids.
Clearly the ESRB has a conflict of interest in rating these games. It is time to bring transparency to this rating system and for the industry to be held accountable. I join the [Campaign for a Commercial-Free Childhood] in urging the Federal Trade Commission to investigate the process by which Manhunt 2’s rating was downgraded from AO to M.
And the political machine keeps churning. Now they are demanding to know exactly what changed were made to the game to get the rating changed from AO to M.Keep in mind, Saw was originally rated NC-17 by the MPAA. That was cut down (barely, actually) to try and earn the R rating. Saw's Uncut Edition DVD is actually what was given an NC-17 by the MPAA.
From our buddy Yee: They immediately throw "parents" in there. Always making this sound like a game for children when neither M or AO means the game is for kids.
Secret rating system? How about movies? How the fuck is stuff like Hostel and Saw rated R, but Showgirls was NC17? Oh no, boobs? There are lots of directors that state they have no idea whats up when they get their movies rated. I see no call to have the government investigate.
But beside all that...look at the hair we are splitting. AO is 18+, M is 17+. So we're arguing over what a 17 year old can see and what an 18 year old can see.I agree w/ this completely -- which is also why I do believe AO should be aged instead at 21+.
...
This is hardly a change at all. I'd go as far as to say AO and M ratings are almost redundant.
Some Manhunt 2 AO-to-M Changes Outlined
New build reveals toned down violence.
By Steve Watts, 09/12/2007
Ever since Rockstar's Manhunt 2 achieved its revised M rating from the Electronic Software Rating Board, there's been politicians demanding transparency but the ESRB refuses to disclose details. Of course, the fight has always been running on borrowed time, since both Holland gamers and game sites that saw earlier builds would eventually spot the differences.
We're seeing the first of those today as IGN reports on seeing the M-rated build of the game, after having earlier calling the AO-rated build "the goriest game [they have] ever seen." The new preview outlines the game's still-present brutality, but details some changes. Though the game has largely been untouched, the infamous testicle-ripping sequence has been cut from the game entirely and death strikes have been heavily tweaked visually, adding a blur effect and darkening sequences to obscure violent viewpoints.
The game is set for a Halloween release, but if you can't wait to feel the terror you can check out our preview of the game. In the meantime, how do you feel about the changes? Is there any reason Rockstar shouldn't have been able to release an "unrated" version of the game, ala Hollywood's approach on DVD?
I really didn't like the first. I got so bored of it so fast. When it all came down to it, it just seemed like it was the same thing over and over again (Which wasn't very good to begin with), hit a to smash guy in face with bad, hit b to smash guy in back with bat...and then face. Hit a to cut with chainsaw, hit b to stab with chainsaw. From what I've seen of this one it looks to be more of the same.I agree. I played a little of this game (it was my brothers') and it was nothing to write home about. It was pretty darn boring.
Manhunt 2 still not OK for UK, says British ratings boardLooks like some in the UK will probably have to import the game from the USA, or something...
14 Comments by Scott Jon Siegel Oct 8th 2007 7:30AM
Filed under: Nintendo Wii
Despite receiving an M rating from the ESRB in the US, Manhunt 2 on the Nintendo Wii is still not appropriate for release in the UK, according to the British Board of Film Classification, who have once again rejected the title, despite changes made since the original rejection back in June.
Any hope of Manhunt 2's release in the UK now hinges on publisher Take 2 Interactive appealing the decision, but not before further changes are made to the final version of the game. David Cooke, director of the BBFC has stated that the changes made to the title thus far are not sufficient, and that the game still retains the same "visceral" and "sadistic" gameplay that warranted the original rejection.
It's unknown at this point whether Take 2 will once again appeal the rejection, or if Manhunt 2 is simply not meant for release in the UK.
They've let plenty of other crap through, and a lot of the lists of banned stuff are really uneven. At least from what I've seen.
Sure, it's different, but the movies they let in were far worse than what I gather Manhunt 2: the Castrated Version now is (it sounds pretty wimpy now, to be honest).
... how?
Whether there's interactivity or not, there content remains the same -- whether witnessing it happen in a movie or imitating an action in a game.
Shit, reading a book could be probably worse, in that regard. In a movie or game, the pictures are spelled out to you. In a book, your imagination could run wild w/ how you paint the picture from what's given on paper -- and, then some, if you expand on it yourself.
FIRED! MAYBE SUED!
I really hope he had some kind of signed agreement garunteeing they would not pursue legal action if he admitted to it. Otherwise, why the hell would you actually fess up?
Famous by infamy?
To be seen a rebel?
Heh, who knows.
Damned if I know, heh!
Famous by infamy?
On most of the executions, you can't really see what's going on
We encourage them to enjoy our games as they are meant to be played. We would also like to emphasize that Manhunt 2 is intended for an audience aged 17 and above.
The ESRB addressed all of these in a Q&A released to the press, which we've provided in full below:So, basically....it sounds like this -- The ESRB is saying that as long as the ESRB knows exactly everything that's on the disc content-wise for assets (rendered art, rendered models, blood, gore, etc etc), then they don't care if it's locked out, blurred-out, or what, if you originally intend to do so w/ the game...
Q: How is this situation different from the "Hot Coffee" incident?
A: The Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas "Hot Coffee" situation involved a scene that was a) fully rendered in an unmodified form on the disc (the Hot Coffee mod did not alter the content that was there, it merely unlocked it), b) not previously disclosed to the ESRB during the rating process, and c) easily accessible to all owners of the PC version of the game. Conversely, in the case of Manhunt 2, a) content that was programmed to be part of the game (i.e., visual blurring effects of certain violent depictions) is being modified, b) the content was previously disclosed to the ESRB, and c) unauthorized versions of software and/or hardware are required to play the modified content.
Q: How is this situation different from the one with "The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion?"
A: After the release of The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, the ESRB discovered extensive amounts of fully rendered and previously undisclosed blood and gore in the game that warranted a Mature rating. In addition, there was a fully rendered anatomically detailed art file of a topless female character present on the disc that had not been previously disclosed to the ESRB during the rating process. The blood and gore was accessible to all owners of the PC and Xbox 360 versions of the game. The partial nudity was accessible to all owners of the PC version of the game if they downloaded a modification available on the Internet that replaced one version of character artwork for another, both of which existed in a fully rendered form on the disc. Conversely, with Manhunt 2, a) the content in question was previously disclosed to the ESRB, b) the content is being modified by removing the obscuring blur effect that was programmed as part of the game, and c) unauthorized versions of software and/or hardware are required to play the modified content.
Q: Why does this instance not fall under the ESRB's disclosure rule clarification requiring that locked-out content contained in the code on a game disc be considered in the assignment of a rating?
A: Our rule clarification following Hot Coffee required that pertinent content that is programmed to be locked out but which exists in an unmodified, fully rendered form on game discs must either be removed or disclosed to ESRB during the rating process. In the case of Manhunt 2, the scenes in question were playable (not locked-out), programmed to include the blur effect, and fully disclosed to the ESRB.
Manhunt 2 PC Planned: Rated AO (For Now)
[Aug 24, 2009, 2:40 pm ET] - Share - Viewing Comments
The Entertainment Software Rating Board (http://www.esrb.org/ratings/search.jsp) now lists a PC edition of Manhunt 2 among the games it has rated. As interesting as Windows plans for Rockstar Games' action/adventure sequel is the AO/Adults-Only rating it has earned, since games are very rarely released with that rating (there are currently all of 24 AO titles in the ESRB database). (http://www.esrb.org/ratings/search.jsp)
The console versions of the game were originally also given an AO rating before some of the content in the game was tamed down, and even then the BBFC rejected the new version for sale in the UK before this ruling was changed by a lawsuit. Currently it is not clear if the Windows version of the game includes the content removed from the console editions, if it is destined for digital distribution, or if this rating will be appealed. Thanks Joystiq. (http://www.joystiq.com/2009/08/24/esrb-rates-ao-version-of-manhunt-2-for-pc/)