Overwritten.net
Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: WindAndConfusion on Thursday, March 20, 2008, 08:35:49 PM
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Click a link, get raided by the FBI. (http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/08/03/20/2323247.shtml)
mytrip brings us a story from news.com about an FBI operation in which agents posted hyperlinks which advertised child pornography, recorded the IP addresses of people who clicked the links, and then tracked them down and raided their homes.
I won't bother listing all the things that are Stupid with this.
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Welcome to Dateline.com, this is the FBI.
Edit: This doesn't really surprise me. Aren't you recorded if you say some key words during a telephone conversation? Or is that a myth?
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ha, well as long as nobody ever gets hold of said link and starts posting it all over the internet, I honestly don't see what would be illegal about the whole thing.
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Come on. Think about it for 2 seconds. Someone is going to maliciously post it somewhere, and call it "Happy [insert current holiday]!!!" This is the sort of thing people can't even have a debate over, isn't it? If you say "no random click should ever get your rights and liberty violated", the retort will be "you're one on the sickos, ain't you?" Taboos may be the one greatest source of elite authoritarian power.
Edit:
People get really stupid when it comes to crimes involving children. They stop using their brains and get extremely emotional. Thus, law enforcement can get away with things they couldn't otherwise. When it comes to sex and children, all logic is out the door. The best example, which unfortunately I can't find a link to right now, is two minors, boyfriend and girlfriend, (they were in the 16-17 range) sent each other naked pictures of themselves via the Internet. This got found out and they were charged with possession, production and distribution of child pornography and sentenced to prison. This was then upheld on appeal. Yes, that's right, kids sentenced to jail and will be labeled as sex offenders for life for taking naked pictures of their own bodies.
Thus even if this is entrapment, it won't matter, because of the crime it involves. Logic and due process just get pushed aside for emotion and a witch hunt mentality.
The best comment I read, whether the story is true or not.
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Totally ridiculous.
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Isn't that entrapment?
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Absolutely.
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Someone is going to maliciously post it somewhere, and call it "Happy [insert current holiday]!!!"
well as long as nobody ever gets hold of said link and starts posting it all over the internet
Exactly what I already mentioned, if you had bothered to read my post.
How is this entrapment any more than dressing a cop up on the street like a prostitute and busting people who solicit them for sex. How can you claim you were trying to do anything but look at child porn if you click a link that says "Click here for hot naked 5 year old boys" or something similar?
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Link prefetching, web spiders, and wget all spring to mind.
Plus, remember all those stories about the RIAA suing grandmothers for sharing Fitty Cent albums? That's because the RIAA confused IP addresses with people. I can pretty much guarantee you the same thing will happen here.
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How is this entrapment any more than dressing a cop up on the street like a prostitute and busting people who solicit them for sex. How can you claim you were trying to do anything but look at child porn if you click a link that says "Click here for hot naked 5 year old boys" or something similar?
Yeah, I thought that entrapment is only when an officer or agent gets you to do something that you wouldn't do otherwise. Like come on lets go steal this, look how easy it will be or something like that.
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Link prefetching, web spiders, and wget all spring to mind.
Plus, remember all those stories about the RIAA suing grandmothers for sharing Fitty Cent albums? That's because the RIAA confused IP addresses with people. I can pretty much guarantee you the same thing will happen here.
I'm not sure what you're "guaranteeing" will happen, wind. There is a pretty big difference between being sued civilly by the RIAA and having a search warrant executed on your property...
Probable Cause is all that is needed to obtain a search warrant, not conclusive proof. Granted that, the FBI knocking on your door at dawn and seizing all your stuff is a pretty serious intrusion into privacy. Judges issue search warrants, and on an individual basis, not the law enforcement agencies. If and when this link scheme started to get out of control and failed to produce people collecting child porn, I would have to think that Judges would stop risking signing the search warrants because Probable Cause of criminal activity would cease to exist. Its not as if the FBI now has carte blanche to go knocking down the front door of anybody who clicks on a link.
I'm not very familiar with the exact legal definition of entrapment, but as I understand it entrapment only occurs when the government tempts someone into committing a crime when they would have otherwise not done so. So, in this example, it would be legal to post a link obviously advertising child pornography in a location where the totality of circumstances would suggest that the person who clicked it was in fact looking for child pornography (such as a forum where many people in the past have been known to look for child pornography.) It would not be legal to post the link in an email to 1000 random people under the heading "Click here to receive a free xbox 360". Anywhere in between would probably occupy some legal grey area.
I think the tendency here is to overreact and assume that the worse is about to happening and the FBI is knocking down the doors of innocent people who had no idea they just clicked a link to child porn, but honestly we know almost nothing about how this thing was structured, and even if it is true to begin with.
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I notice you completely ignored my point about prefetching and wget.
I'm not sure what you're "guaranteeing" will happen, wind.
I am guaranteeing that the FBI will start confiscating computers belonging to people who have open WiFi access points, and raiding the houses of grandmothers who are paying for the Internet connections of their grandkids, and the like. Just like what has happened with the RIAA lawsuits.
There is a pretty big difference between being sued civilly by the RIAA and having a search warrant executed on your property...
Don't feign stupidity. You know damn well what my words mean.
Probable Cause is all that is needed to obtain a search warrant, not conclusive proof. Granted that, the FBI knocking on your door at dawn and seizing all your stuff is a pretty serious intrusion into privacy. Judges issue search warrants, and on an individual basis, not the law enforcement agencies. If and when this link scheme started to get out of control and failed to produce people collecting child porn, I would have to think that Judges would stop risking signing the search warrants because Probable Cause of criminal activity would cease to exist.
That's extremely naive, for the following reasons:
- Many judges - perhaps most judges - are stupid.
- The "probable cause" doctrine is extremely weak. Judges have accepted anonymous phone calls, strange odors, and "suspicions" as sufficient bases to justify arrests and searches.
- The FBI only needs the approval of one judge to get a search warrant - any judge, be it at the federal, state or local level. They can choose which judge to ask for a search warrant, and if rejected by one, nothing stops them from making the exact same request to another.
- The War on Drugs has conclusively demonstrated that judges are willing to issue search warrants for idiotic reasons.
- The War on Terror has conclusively demonstrated that judges are willing to issue search warrants for idiotic reasons.
- The War on Drunk Driving has created a huge body of legal doctrine which basically says that the cops are always right.
- Contrary to your assumption, there isn't a review process to make sure that these search warrants are accomplishing anything.
- Federal judges are political appointees. Political appointees are notoriously ideological.
Its not as if the FBI now has carte blanche to go knocking down the front door of anybody who clicks on a link.
Are you not paying attention? If this story is true, the FBI does have carte blanche to bust down the door of anybody who clicks on the wrong link.
I'm not very familiar with the exact legal definition of entrapment, but as I understand it entrapment only occurs when the government tempts someone into committing a crime when they would have otherwise not done so.
I don't care what the legal definition of entrapment is. What the FBI is doing is Stupid and Wrong, regardless of what the law says.
I think the tendency here is to overreact and assume that the worse is about to happening and the FBI is knocking down the doors of innocent people who had no idea they just clicked a link to child porn, but honestly we know almost nothing about how this thing was structured, and even if it is true to begin with.
That's called "presumption of innocence," and yes that is my tendency.
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You're right Wind, how could I have been so ignorant. Clearly the FBI is stupid for trying to stop the victimization of minors over the internet, most judges are stupid for signing search warrants based on anything less than proof beyond a reasonable doubt, and the doctrines our entire criminial justice system is based on is stupid. Perhaps you're willing to enlighten us all on how things should be done. I for one would certainly be interested.
I'll sum up the extent of my thoughts as briefly as possible, feel free to continue thinking whatever it is that you're thinking.
1. I can easily present a situation where the FBI posting a link advertising child pornography would constitute sufficient suspicion to justify a search warrant on the property of the person who clicked it.
2. I do recognize the potential for the link to be misused or misrepresented, however the legal system does have the necessary checks and balances to prevent some kind of widespread disaster.
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Good God, it's like you're asking me to troll you.
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Wind's only condemning this because he wants to see some boys in their underwear.
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Hasn't this been kind of going on for a while though?? I mean the monitoring.
I remember a few years back in Canada some guy had the police raid his place because his ISP traced some kiddie-porn activity to his IP. As it turned out he had an unsecured WiFi connection that some perv used to hijack with a laptop from a car parked just outside.
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Good God, it's like you're asking me to troll you.
Perhaps you could enlighten us instead of doing nothing but expressing righteous indignation over my last post.
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Yea Wind, drop the asshole mentality and actually make a polite argument for once.
Cause you know, being a fuckwit on the internet is sooo original and inspiring.
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"Oh no, people are being mean on the Internet! And all I did was say some retarded bullshit! How will I ever get over it?"
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Yea Wind, drop the asshole mentality and actually make a polite argument for once.
The attitude is appropriate, therefore it stays. Reasonable arguments only work when people are being reasonable.
Does this look like a reasonable argument?
You're right Wind, how could I have been so ignorant. Clearly the FBI is stupid for trying to stop the victimization of minors over the internet, most judges are stupid for signing search warrants based on anything less than proof beyond a reasonable doubt, and the doctrines our entire criminial justice system is based on is stupid. Perhaps you're willing to enlighten us all on how things should be done. I for one would certainly be interested.
Does that actually sound like a fair description of my views? Because to me it sounds like an insult and a troll. Is anyone surprised that I might respond in kind?
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(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png)
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The attitude is appropriate, therefore it stays. Reasonable arguments only work when people are being reasonable.
Does this look like a reasonable argument? Does that actually sound like a fair description of my views? Because to me it sounds like an insult and a troll. Is anyone surprised that I might respond in kind?
Scroll up. Dont play innocent like you didnt swing first. Also, no, the attitude isn't appropriate, Im not stupid so im asking again to knock it off.
And why are you talking to me? You have an argument to finish. If not, then this is over.
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Dan wins the thread. :)
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Ponder the following: nobody cares if you think you're smart, and if you're a douchebag, nobody cares even if you are smart. Be polite or take it elsewhere.
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(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png)
Hahahha ;D That gave me a chuckle! Thanks Dan!
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Ponder the following: nobody cares if you think you're smart, and if you're a douchebag, nobody cares even if you are smart. Be polite or take it elsewhere.
Yet apparently people care enough to keep posting about how much they don't care.
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I don't know why, but I love W&C (not in the way he wants me to though). He just makes me laugh so much. I don't even side with him, especially here, where I see the logic in Antares' arguments. I just find it funny that he manages to accomplish ticking so many of you off.
I think that's his actual goal, and he isn't really an asshole.
You have to appreciate W&C as if he were a Hideo Kojima creation. You have to see the inner parody, the brilliance in insults, the fact that in real life he probably wears thick rimmed glasses and reads books on nuclear physics as bed time stories.
I see W&C as a never ending insult sword fighting sequence from Monkey's Island. That's why I guess I find him so funny. It also helps that I don't cross paths with him. *shudder*
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I find him funny in the way that I find Hellen Keller funny. You know, the point-and-laugh kind of funny.
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This thread was a lot more fun before you two showed up.