Overwritten.net
Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: scottws on Monday, April 11, 2011, 09:44:09 AM
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13031397
It is about French police arresting two women who were wearing veils.
I don't know where I sit on my opinion of this law. A big part of me says the law is wrong because who is the government to dictate to religion (though I suppose there would be limits like physical mutilation or human sacrifice). Another part of me says that it is wrong for men to be able to force women to do anything against their free will.
I suppose to me the best thing would be to have a law banning the coercion of women to wear the veil but not ban veil-wearing outright as some might choose to do so on their own. Of course such a law would be very difficult to enforce and hence be almost pointless.
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I'm against it. Government shouldn't be involved in matters of religion. This sets a dangerous precedent. What's next? Jewish women wearing wigs? Kipphas? Crosses?
I've heard a few reasons for these new laws, like being able to hide weapons in the veils in school or women being forced into doing it, etc. To me this is clearly anti-Islamic and the next step in the growing religious conflict that is has been brewing in Europe for the last couple of decades.
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Just a minor clarification: the face veil is not a muslim thing. It's a cultural custom and is often misconceived as an Islamic traditional garment. There is no mention of "compulsory face covering" anywhere in official religious texts (namely the Holy Qur'an). Has nothing to do with religion. The headscarf on the other hand is a religious garment chosen to be worn by women who are ready to don it, not forced to wear it.
The French gov't is pretty much bonkers at this point. Government and religion should not cross over beyond the basic "don't steal, don't kill, don't rape, etc." set of laws. The way I see it, religion is a deeply personal matter and that's no place for government.
I'm generally against the whole face-covering thing for the simple reason that it's a security issue, even in my own culture I'm a little uncomfortable around face-veiled women (who claim it's for religion) just because I think my presence alone offends somehow them, kinda like the whole Feminazi thing all over again. Plus there's an understandable double-standard: woman covering her face = possibly religious or blindingly gorgeous; man covering face = burglar, terrorist, mischievous ninja. As I explained, covering the face is not a matter of religion (though it is commonly confused to be), I get mildly offended when someone claims to cover their face for "islamic" reasons because it's untrue and misleading.
As a cultural custom though, I take no issue. A particular culture of women cover their faces and recognize that it is a custom, no problem. For example, Gulfian women here in the U.A.E.
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Thanks for the clarification. I always thought "going under the veil" was a very conservative Islamic thing.
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My issue with it is the women here in the US who demanded that their ID photos be taken with the veils on. The world gets more absurd by the day.
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My issue with it is the women here in the US who demanded that their ID photos be taken with the veils on. The world gets more absurd by the day.
Oh man, the same crap happens here too. It's just ridiculous.
Thanks for the clarification. I always thought "going under the veil" was a very conservative Islamic thing.
Yeah, the "veil" generally refers to the headscarf since its name in Arabic "hijab" literally translates to veil or barrier. I think journalists like to use the word "veil." It adds a pinch of mystery.
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I think if there was any law to be made, its that you would have to show your face when requested by law enforcement or for other means of identification.
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Yeah, just for ID purposes it makes sense. Otherwise? No one should care if someone chooses to do it. I mean, it's basically the exact opposite of indecent exposure and shouldn't frighten small children (unless the covering had some badass demon designs, but if anyone passes a law against that they may as well round up people with full body tattoos).
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The ironic thing is that France restricts speaking against Islamic influence in France. Brigitte Bardot got fined (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brigitte-bardot-fined-for-racism-839403.html) for doing it.
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My issue with it is the women here in the US who demanded that their ID photos be taken with the veils on. The world gets more absurd by the day.
That's the thing - you need to find a reasonable stance in any matter...the "Golden Mean" if you will. There are very legitimate reasons why you may not want someone wearing what's essentially a mask in certain circumstances. But defining every one of those circumstances isn't really practical. So, you're left with a choice - figure a way out to define a broad set of circumstances or trigger to identify these times (when asked by authorities, for official documentation purposes), or just outright ban the action. The first action is the correct one, the second is either evidence of pure stupidity or thinly veiled persecution.
I do completely agree, though, that someone who refuses to abide by reasonable rules due to a cultural or religious position, such as taking off a veil for a passport photo, pretty much by default gives up whatever privileges they stand to receive from abiding by said rules. Not going to take off your veil? No passport, no driver's licence. End of story.
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Well said.
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Exactly, well said, GPW.
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The biggest reason I think this is stupid is that it creates a problem for French ninjas.
How the hell are they supposed to rule the night now?
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It doesn't matter. Any Ninja worth their weight shouldn't be seen at all. Good Ninjas could run around naked if they wanted to.
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Ninja Parade (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtR2m20C2YM)
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;D
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1. Forcing women to do something to stop them from being forced to do something is ridiculous.
2. I've never run across a case of a muslim woman being forced to wear hijab or niqab. Nor has my wife. I'm sure it happens but what about the women who choose to wear them?
3. Ninja's don't wear niqab, that's just pirate propaganda.
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1. Forcing women to do something to stop them from being forced to do something is ridiculous.
2. I've never run across a case of a muslim woman being forced to wear hijab or niqab. Nor has my wife. I'm sure it happens but what about the women who choose to wear them?
3. Ninja's don't wear niqab, that's just pirate propaganda.
what a liar. no woman would marry you.
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Ninja Parade (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtR2m20C2YM)
Awesome!
All we need now is a Pirates Parade.
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Haha
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what a liar. no woman would marry you.
Patronizing Bullshark is punishable by death on these forums. Also wearing a veil is punishable by death here.
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what a liar. no woman would marry you.
Who said it was a woman?
SNAP! SNAP!