Overwritten.net
Games => General Gaming => Topic started by: idolminds on Wednesday, February 08, 2012, 07:16:45 PM
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Neato (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/66710809/double-fine-adventure)
Give $15 and you get the completed game on Steam, and get to watch documentary footage of the development and play beta versions. You can also give more and get more stuff.
No word on what the game will be like other than a point and click adventure. They estimate it will be released in October.
Wow. They have 30 days to reach a goal of $400,000. Its at about $5,000 now and goes up by $1k every time I refresh the page.
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I might be all over that. Let me check my finances since I've been a bit of a spendthrift this month.
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Well, it looks like a done deal already. That was fast and probably says something about the industry if you want to think about it much.
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Crap! Overshot the goal by about 40% with over a month to spare. If the messages are an indication of the timeline, they did this in 0.5/33 or one 66th the time they allotted for it?! A bunch of people gave a lot of money too. After Minecraft, it doesn't surprise me too much. But that project involved an actual product you could enjoy. This project is just vaporware at this point. Wow. I think I need to crowd-source my life.
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Yeah, this stuff is becoming huge. Not necessarily viable for everyone, but for bigger companies with a fan following? You bet.
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RPS has some thoughts on this phenomenon. (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/02/09/thought-double-fines-kickstarter-asks-some-big-questions/)
Its coming up on $700,000 now. With 33 days left to go.
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You know, funny thing about that article, I remember Gabe Newell saying something similar along those lines of
And developers even more so should be sitting up and noticing that if their product appears worthwhile, people will want to fund it, without the developer having to sacrifice their money, creativity and even the possibility of the entire product to a publisher.
And everyone thought he was crazy.
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Kickstarter tweeted:
Double Fine Adventure has broken Kickstarter records for most funds raised in 24 hrs & highest number of backers
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A few publishers and producers must be shaking in their boots right about now.
Edit:
UPDATE: We did it! 100% funded in just over eight hours. You people are amazing! But it's not over yet. The number keeps going up and now the question is just how much news do we want to make with this? We're getting a lot of attention already and it seems like this little project could have an impact beyond itself.
No kidding. Trembling, I tell you. $859K and counting . . .
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Well as RPS noted it wouldn't would for everyone. This is blowing up because its Tim Schafer and Ron Gilbert wanting to make a point-and-click adventure. That just hits all the right nostalgia notes for lots of people.
But for the right companies planning the right projects, this is going to be a big deal. Could fans fund a Shenmue 3? Think about it, Sega.
EDIT
Yeah pyro, I remember that (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=24502). Kind of funny they didn't try it first. But Gabes numbers were pretty unrealistic. $30million? I don't think you'd ever get that. And as I said above, its really going to depend on whos asking for money. Valve, EA, Activision, etc? They are big enough to get their own funding without asking the fans. Double Fine is in a perfect position to take advantage of this model that other companies (both bigger and smaller) aren't.
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Some interesting ideas are already popping up. What if this model wasn't just to find a games development, but perhaps to fund translations and bringing games over from other countries? I'd throw some money at a Yakuza: Kenzan! localization.
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Who says Tim doesn't have a sense of humor?
$955k! Guys, I'll make you a deal. If we hit $980k I'll add RTS elements to the game! And if we hit $1M, I'll take them back out!
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Haha. I love that guy, I really do.
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$1,000,000 in 24 hours - Achievement Unlocked
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*Clack!* And USA Today hears it (http://www.usatoday.com/tech/gaming/story/2012-02-09/game-funding-crowdsourced/53031998/1).
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I hope the big publishers start thinking they can get away with this. That just sorta taints the whole deal. What this is really about (hopefully) is a neglected fanbase standing up and saying they're big enough to get a game made for them with a very modest budget.
If Activision turns around and says, "Hey, you like Call of Duty? Why don't you fund the next game so we can make it for you!" I'm sorry. It just won't work that way.
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But for the right companies planning the right projects, this is going to be a big deal. Could fans fund a Shenmue 3? Think about it, Sega.
I think the interesting concept here is that now there's actually infrastructure for fans to not only do this, but also potentially show developers that certain projects could indeed be cost effective. I remember the late 90's/early 2000's when tons of were clamouring for companies to release certain games/ports whatever. Some that pop into my mind are SEGA fans and NiGHTS, Shining Force III (all scenarios), and Shenmue. In all three of these cases the only real avenues were carpet bombing letters/emails and/or online petitions. Neither made a huge impact because (I remember from an announcement from one executive or creator) these weren't actually indicative of fan demand and especially potential sales. The investment was just as risky as if there had been no campaign at all because anyone could fire off a hundred letters under different names, fill our an online petition multiple times, or just do either with no intention of ever spending a dollar.
Now, however, there are ways to gauge fan reaction and propensity to pay. Even for a big company like SEGA. Start up something on a site like Kickstarter and say "WE'll pump out Shenmue 3 if we get XXX preorders). Throw the price in at whatever and the deadline and if they hit it, they know that there's a demand there. If not, people get their money back and can't really complain.
More often than not, I don't think it'd really pan out - but the few times it did would probably be pretty sweet.
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SQUARE. ALL YOUR GAMES SUCK. PUT SEIKEN DENSETSU 3 ON IOS! TAKE MY MONEY!
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I hope the big publishers start thinking they can get away with this. That just sorta taints the whole deal. What this is really about (hopefully) is a neglected fanbase standing up and saying they're big enough to get a game made for them with a very modest budget.
If Activision turns around and says, "Hey, you like Call of Duty? Why don't you fund the next game so we can make it for you!" I'm sorry. It just won't work that way.
It depends on what they're offering in return. If you get a complete game plus extra goodies for, say, half the price the retail box would go for after completion, it might be a good deal, if the developer is trustworthy and delivers what is promised. I can see this working as investment. It will never work as charity.
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I really think it would work great for companies to judge whether to translate a game. If Sega put up a kickstarter for Yakuza Kenzan I would drop $60 straight up for it (as long as I get a copy). If it meets their goal then the game comes over and everyone is happy. If not then no one loses anything other than hope.
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Obsidian is looking at Kickstarter as an option, as well. (http://forums.obsidian.net/blog/1/entry-158-if-obsidian-kickstarter/)
This also caused some traffic problems yesterday on their website and forums, once they made this post. :P
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PCGamer -> Tim Schafer on the battle of trying to port games to the PC. (http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/02/13/tim-schafer-talks-double-fine%E2%80%99s-uphill-battle-to-publish-games-on-pc/)
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UPDATE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFKwplDBmgg)
Windows, Mac, Linux, iOS, and Android! Voice acting! Subtitles in English, French, Italian, German and Spanish! And, my favorite, DRM-free option at launch! Hell yeah! Now I think I have to kick some money their way.
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That is sexy news! I love it when stunts like this work out so well and spit in the eye of DRM and oppressive publishers.
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GameTrailers.com -> Interview w/ Tim Schafer of Double Fine and Rod Fergusson of Epic Games on the whole Kickstarter business model vs. Publisher-driven model. (http://www.gametrailers.com/episode/bonusround/602?ch=2?xrs=synd_facebook)
PC Gamer -> Donations of over $2 mill for Double Fine Adventure so far on Kickstarter w/ 22 days left to go. (http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/02/20/double-fine-adventure-game-donations-pass-2-million-22-days-to-go/)
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New rewards (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/66710809/double-fine-adventure/posts)
$30 - documentary soundtrack
$60 - PDF Art book
$100 - Physical box copy, with DVD or Bluray of documentary
$500 - Physical art book
As an extra treat, about a month before the Kickstarter project, Tim and Ron talked about adventure games for a half hour. You know you want to watch this.
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lol (http://www.giantbomb.com/forums/general-discussion/30/tim-schafers-money-shots/538642/#42)
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Haha hilarious ;D
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If you missed out on the Kickstarter, Double Fine is now allowing for Slacker Backers (http://www.doublefine.com/dfa/). There is only one tier, $15 gets you the game DRM free, Steam key, beta access, HD documentary streaming, and access to the backer forum. Plus you can pay with Paypal in case that was an issue before.
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Damn, I wish there were more payment options. PayPal recently started rejecting my card due to "region issues."
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A little cross posting. (I really should have posted this here to begin with.)
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The documentary is great. Just watched episode 2 and need to check the backer forum for more "side" videos. Its a really interesting look at game development. Totally worth $15 all on its own, and then you get a free game at the end :P
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Guess this can sit in its own thread here, so bump time!
Well there have been some...developments. Game is still trucking along but they have been running into money and scheduling issues. Basically Tim went nuts designing the game and overshot. You can read about it here (http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/double-fine-s-broken-age-being-split-in-half/1100-4684/). Unfortunately, that letter from Tim was for backers and some writer looking for a scoop leaked it. If you've been watching the documentary all along this is all just sort of known information and something they have been working on.
So TLDR version is Broken Age is going to have a split release. The first part (which i guess is Act 1 and 2, sorta) will come out in January. It will be on Steams Early Access thing, so backers will get it first-first and then it will be up for sale to everyone else. The extra money that brings in will help them finish the last part of the game, which will then be a free update to the game a few months later.
I guess that's as good a solution as can be had. Either that or they need to cut back on the games scope quite a bit. Tim has been pretty adamant that they don't want to go to a publisher or run another KS to get more funds to finish the game. So I hope this works out for them.
As a backer, the only thing that bothers me is the Steam bit. i knew early beta access was always going to be on Steam because its easier for them to control. That's cool, I didn't want to play beta versions anyway. But with this new release plan the game is essentially Steam exclusive for a few months until part 2 is complete. Now, I will probably want to wait to play the whole experience at once anyway, but I still don't really like this sort of thing. Remember how Shadowrun Returns "drm-free" shit turned out. I don't want to see a repeat of that.
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$3 million plus, and still not enough for a few guys who already work as a team to come up with a point-and-click game? I admit I haven't read or watched any explanations. This is just a gut reaction.
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I've said it before and I will say it again.
Americans are just too nice and too trusting. Actually, people from first world nations are in general too nice and trusting, and very easy in giving the benefit of the doubt.
The budget was 400,000. They got a lot more money than that, and they've turned it into a BAD thing. They really fucked up, and too many people are making excuses for them.
It is a big fuck up.
Here is a perfect response in that link Idol posted. One of the few normal ones:
"Remember when you gave us a shitload of money? Well we planned poorly and now we need more money! It's still cool if we just give you the first half of the game right? We'll figure out the second half later..."
Fuck that."
People should be letting Tim have it. He should have completed the game in 400,000. The extra, he could have used to polish the game. The fact that he overshot is HIS fault. He needs to complete the game on his own budget. Now he says the total budget is 10 mil? Wtf?
I bet publishers are looking at this bewildered. Had it been EA's kickstarter people would have torn them into bits.
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$400,000 he would have designed a completely different game. But you're right, still being over budget is his fault with the design no matter what the final budget ended up being.
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While I am a fan of Tim Schaeffer (and Ron Gilbert) I do agree with Pug. Tim fucked up, big time. Whatever they decide they need to make amends; let's not forget this is a project that was almost entirely funded by the generosity of others.
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It is just highly unprofessional.
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I really don't think this is a big of a deal as some people are making it. Yes, they fucked up by not having the game out on time, yes it sucks that they are breaking it up in two parts, but they are still delivering the same product they promised they would. Backers will still get the full game and if you have been watching the behind the scenes documentary you will see Schafer being as transparent as he can be about this whole mess, which is something he should be applauded for, since most game companies would never be this transparent about their budgeting and development process. I'm not saying he gets some kind of free pass without criticism, but he is at least being as open as possible about the whole thing.
I'm a backer and I'm glad I'm going to be getting a larger game than I was expecting and I really don't mind waiting to play until the whole thing is done. The only thing that kind of sucks is that they are doing the early release stuff on Steam and not everyone wants to use Steam. Hopefully they release the first part DRM free to backers since the full game was going to have a DRM free release and there are people who specifically back game projects that do a release that way.
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I don't think people are reacting enough. It is a little outrageous.
Here are some quotes from Kotaku readers that seem appropriate:
So, to make sure I'm understanding this correctly, despite raising almost ten times the amount requested on Kickstarter, and having a Humble Bundle recently with Broken Age as a BTA item, more funds still need to be raised??? I know, I know, game development is expensive, blah blah blah blah blah.... but.... really? Does anyone have an ounce of faith in the successful completion of Massive Chalice based on this? Again, all risks considered, they probably raised 10 times the amount of money projected to create this game..... and yet.... need more money. Wow. After getting some heat for going to Kickstarter for another game with Massive Chalice, I'd like to think that there will be a bit more hesitation from backers now that a game that shattered Kickstarter records is coming back for more money through Steam. I want to believe there's a way this isn't a colossal mismanagement of money, but man.
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This is perfect:
Unpopular opinion time.
There's a little thing called 'restraint' that should've been used here...you got 3 million dollars instead of 400,000...now you need more? Really? There's alot of other Kickstarter projects that would KILL just to make 20,000 and you made 3 million.
That doesn't look so hot for your company to be honest...in putting in all this new shit can you at LEAST ensure that the game will be good?
Ah well, you're Tim Schafer, people will give you more money. So Good Luck again.
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I respect the guy immensely for the beautiful games he has created for the industry, but he sounds like a big baby who doesn't understand the gravity of what happened:
“This was a huge wake-up call for all of us,” said Schafer. “If this were true, we weren’t going to have to cut the game in half, we were going to have to cut it down by 75%!
“What would be left? How would we even cut it down that far? Just polish up the rooms we had and ship those? Reboot the art style with a dramatically simpler look? Remove the Boy or Girl from the story? Yikes! Sad faces all around.”
Yikes? Sad faces all around? You have people who put so much faith in you that they paid nearly 10 times as much as you asked for, and now you are asking for even more money (apparently close to the level of some Call of Duty game), and you are saying 'Sad faces all around'?
I can tell this guy is an artist but he isn't good at being a leader. He probably needs someone to manage him.
That being said, the game does sound totally awesome. :(
Broken Age is a point-and-click adventure telling the stories of a young boy and girl leading parallel lives. The girl has been chosen by her village to be sacrificed to a terrible monster–but she decides to fight back. Meanwhile, a boy on a spaceship is living a solitary life under the care of a motherly computer, but he wants to break free to lead adventures and do good in the world. Adventures ensue.
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Again, all risks considered, they probably raised 10 times the amount of money projected to create this game
If they only raised the $400k we wouldn't be getting this game. We would be getting a completely different game. When they got more money, the design of the game changed. Yes, they overshot...that happens. Tim even said in the first backer video that...yeah, $400k...we could make a game for that. It would be a little flash game or something, but they could do it. I don't think after getting how much they got if they only followed through with a flash game that people would be too happy with it.
Keep in mind $3.4 million is still really low for a game budget. Plus, KS took a fee, Amazon took a fee, they had to make and ship tshirts and stuff, they have to pay the documentary guys. After that they were left with $2m.
I mean, yeah...the situation sucks and they really don't have anyone to blame but themselves. Keep in mind that Tims letter was meant for backers ONLY, but it got leaked. What didn't get leaked was the documentary episode that went with it. The letter is basically assuming you watched the video and tries to give some finer points on it. They had a camera in the meeting where this current plan was brought up. Tim was really torn on it, Greg Rice was against the idea, pretty much all of the things people are bitching about now were brought up. And maybe its because I backed so I've got some tinted goggles on, but after watching the episode I can see it working. It's not ideal, but it should work.
And you have to hand it to DF, they aren't asking for a handout. Any extra money they put into the game so far has been their own. They ran the humble bundle, did the amnesia fortnight thing, whatever. They have not run a second KS or something simply asking for money (which happened to some other project I'm forgetting the name of). They at least earned that money. And they are just going to be selling the first part of Broken Age. Buy it or don't. Backers get it already so the sales they get will be on the games own merits.
I dunno, I don't want to sound like a defensive fanboy or anything. I think some people are just looking for something they can shit on because they don't like Kickstarter to begin with. Some people want Broken Age to fail so they can say "See? I was right!" The initial pitch video Tim said you get to see development, warts and all. Well here we are.
I will say everything they have shown of the game in the videos, it is looking fantastic. I am really excited to play the final game. So if this helps them keep going with this level of quality, I think people will be really surprised with how well it turned out.
EDIT: Quick edit. One other thing to consider is they aren't screwing anyone over here. Backers that paid to get the game will get the game. That hasn't changed. Part 1 will be sold early, and Part 2 will be a free update a few months later. They are NOT splitting this into 2 games and charging for each one separately to make more money. So once part 2 is out then its just the full game, like before.
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Yea, I will admit that I can see why people are pissed but I'm fine with them making a game on a bigger scale. I wouldn't call it unprofessional since theres no real history or any sort of guidelines to go by for something like KS, this is all new grounds. Probably what bothers me most about all this is that apparently everybody is becoming a big shot game developer now that knows the ins and outs of game development costs and time budgeting more than Tim and Double Fine, chill dudes, seriously.
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The Banner Saga guys had something to say. (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/stoic/the-banner-saga/posts/529873)
A CONVERSATION ABOUT KICKSTARTER
Lots of stuff has been going on in the Kickstarter community lately. I'm sure many of you have noticed Double Fine's announcement about splitting up their game into two parts. They've gotten some serious heat for this. Backers of Shadowrun have heard similar things about the content in that game, with the DLC being released much later.
First of all, I want to be clear that we do not intend to do something like this for The Banner Saga. When it releases it will be a complete product. We don't have plans for DLC at this time, and we will continue to support the multiplayer component. We also intend to continue on the sequels (chapter 2 and 3) just as planned.
I would also like to talk about my personal opinion on this, and I'd love to be open and talk like a normal person instead of a PR person in damage control mode. Can we do this? Without freaking out? You can disagree with me of course, just be nice about it.
This is hard. Like, way WAY hard. When we pitched the game we were hoping for enough money to get extra animations, maybe increase the length of the game. We thought we'd get, like, 2000 backers, not 20,000. A fine problem to have, right? Haha! Except that it's actually a huge problem. The hardest problem I've ever dealt with in my life. Now I know.
We thought now we could do everything we ever wanted for the game, and got too ambitious. We thought we could make the game in six months, and I'm still not sure what we were thinking. That was stupid. I wish I could take that back, all we needed to do was put a different date there and nobody would be complaining. Whoops. We ARE still doing everything we want, and it's taking a long time. I don't feel bad about that. That was the POINT, right? To dream as big as we could?
It's interesting to think of it from someone else's point of view. For many people, letting a dev shoot for the moon is NOT the point. For a lot of people the point is I BOUGHT A GAME, WHERE IS IT? They want the biggest, best game ever made, on time, for their $10 contribution. I can see that, too. I don't really agree... but I suppose it's a matter of perspective.
If nothing else, I think the gaming community is finally getting a good picture about real game development. What would really shock people is that there is nothing unusual about any of this, except that you are finally seeing it. This is every game development story that has ever existed, except instead of the publisher dealing with it, YOU are.
Budgets of 1 to 4 million are small-to-medium sized. Our budget of $650k (in actual funding) is relatively small, half a year of production for a small team. Budgets of kickstarter projects asking for $20k... that's not enough to make a game, that's just some content. Surprise! Games you've come to expect as "standard" like Call of Duty: maybe 150 million to make, rough guess. You know how much Old Republic cost? I'm not legally allowed to tell you, actually. It's that much. Now you know.
Games take 1 year to make... if it's a casual iOS game, or an annual sequel. Medium sized games take 2-3 years. Large games take 4-5 years. Believe it or not, lots of games fall in a nebulous space between AAA and "indie", whatever that means. The Old Republic took over 6 years. Yeah, you started hearing about it 1 year before it released. It started production five years before that. For five years hundreds of people toiled on it 12 hours a day and you had no idea! Now you know! Isn't knowing about production right from the start wonderful? No, it's not. It's annoying. It takes FOREVER. That's why you usually don't hear anything until it's almost ready to ship.
Delays, content cuts, pushed back dates, plans to make revenue sooner- this is how games are developed. Bioshock Infinite, the biggest game of 2013, got delayed for half a year, AFTER pre-orders were sold. Journey took 3 years to make a 3 hour game and had to go back for more funding from Sony TWICE. That's how game development goes. They didn't know they'd need to do it. Humans are not good at estimating creative endeavors, no matter how "professional" they are.
We released a truly free demo hoping to make some extra cash for development, and got brutalized for it. But without that income and development time our single-player game wouldn't be as good. Some people will never understand this.
I've worked in games for about a decade. Some companies I worked for had their stuff together better than others. Some were a huge, hundred-million dollar, extremely delayed nightmares. Every company had delays and went over-budget. You know what a release date is? A guess. We're just guessing.
Essentially, I hope people don't freak out too much about what's happening with Kickstarter right now. It's not deceitful or underhanded. It's not a conspiracy. It's normal stuff, whether you like it or not. If Broken Age wasn't a Kickstarter game the first time you would have heard about it would be a couple months from ship, and that it was a two-part adventure game. And you would have been fine with that.
Our game is coming along better than I could have imagined, even if delayed. BECAUSE it's delayed. I'm super happy with it. Other companies have way bigger problems, but that's game development. NOW YOU KNOW. I sincerely hope everything works out the best for them, and you should too. At the end of the day, they're nice guys trying to make good entertainment for you. I, personally, will cut them all the slack in the world.
So there you have it. The games industry! The aristocrats! Maybe it'll get better someday? For now, let's enjoy our time together! (I love you).
-Alex
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I can empathize with much of that. When I'm given a brief I have to estimate a turn-around time, which is for all intents and purposes an educated guess about when I can deliver my designs. I try to adhere to some ideals like "under-promise and over-deliver" but it's not always so easy to do.
The reason I might take issue with Double Fine's situation is that the original pitch is supposed to be an overshot. When you say you need $400,000 it should mean that the game actually requires less but you aim higher to give yourself a viable margin to work with. Add to it that they made well-beyond the target, and it wasn't like $50,000 more, it was more like $2.9M more, and I understand why people are confused.
Imagine a slightly different scenario:
Son: Hey Dad, how about I go get us some food from McDonald's?
Dad: Sure, son. How much do you need?
Son: Well, it's gonna be about $15 for both of us.
Dad: Alright, here's $100, get the meals and grab some sundaes too!
Son: Yeah.. So.. It's not enough for two meals.. I mean, I'll get you the fries in about 5 mins, but I'm gonna go ask Mom for some more cash so I can get you the burger too.
Dad: Son, hand over the weed. If $100 is not enough for McD's you'd better have some damn good weed.
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haha... I like it..
I want to add something to your thing..
Son: Hey Dad, how about I go get us some food from McDonald's?
Dad: Sure, son. How much do you need?
Son: Well, it's gonna be about $15 for both of us.
Dad: Alright, here's $100, get the meals and grab some sundaes too!
Son: Well, Dad, I need more money. I need about $200 more.
Dad: Huh? Why?
Son: Well, I went and got a lobster dinner with the $100. It is fabulous, but I didn't have enough money. So I need about $200 more to feed all of us. But don't worry. We can still have half the meal now!
Dad: Ummm... didn't you just want $15 for a MCD meal?
OK so this is a bit much. Overall, I am excited for what Double Fine show us. I do think this guy, like a typical artist, has trouble balancing vision with practicality. I have worked with a lot of artists here on projects, and trust me... they lose practical sense. It is still exciting because they produce exciting work.
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Of course with how KS works...
Son: Hey Dad, how about I go get us some food from McDonald's?
Dad: Sure, son. How much do you need?
Son: Well, it's gonna be about $15 for both of us.
Dad: I only have $14.
Son: Aww, well maybe we can just forget the fries.
Dad: Nope, it's all or nothing.
Son: This sucks!
Dad: If you want to eat now you have to go whore yourself out to some rich guy, heed all his demands, and then he will let you eat. But probably not McDonalds, it'll be Arbys or something.
Son: I hate you!
Dad: You sound like your mother.
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Hahaha Kickstarter -> Kickstand