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Community => Serious Topics => Topic started by: Pugnate on Wednesday, November 09, 2016, 02:13:35 AM

Title: Trump is now president
Post by: Pugnate on Wednesday, November 09, 2016, 02:13:35 AM
Words I never though I'd type.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: MysterD on Wednesday, November 09, 2016, 04:54:57 AM
Simpsons predicted this/joked about it years ago:
http://kotaku.com/the-simpsons-predicted-president-trump-sixteen-years-ag-1788741528?utm_campaign=Socialflow_Kotaku_Facebook&utm_source=Kotaku_Facebook&utm_medium=Socialflow

It's a reality now.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Cobra951 on Wednesday, November 09, 2016, 08:09:12 AM


This is just as much about keeping Hilary out of power as it is about the rejection of politics as usual.  It is very similar to Brexit.  The other huge sore spot is Obamacare, the evil abortion of what should have been the birth of a European-style (and Canadian-style) single-payer healthcare system.

I've been saying for months, to family and friends, that there was no way to know what the results of yesterday would be, until yesterday had passed.  Polls mean nothing when non-confrontational people--including the so-called silent majority--are afraid to admit they're voting for Trump.  The division got that ugly, the fear of retribution that overpowering.  That fear does not carry into the anonymous voting booth.

We'll see what happens from here.  The first thing to do, I think, is to forget campaign rhetoric.  We should know by now how little that reflects on what happens afterward.  (Remember "yes, we can"?)  This is not the end of anyone's world, not anyone who isn't an outlaw anyway.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Quemaqua on Wednesday, November 09, 2016, 09:32:40 AM
Was absolutely not a fan of either major candidate, but this is the worst possible outcome. A lunatic at the helm and total Republican control of the House, Senate, and Supreme Court. I'm horrified and disgusted.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Pugnate on Wednesday, November 09, 2016, 09:56:40 AM
Anyone waking up feeling depressed?
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: K-man on Wednesday, November 09, 2016, 10:31:18 AM
A little depressed, a bit worried about the what-ifs, but also somewhat more emboldened to be the change I want to see in the world.  I can't modify the outcome of the election, but I can work harder to positively impact my community.  And that might inspire others to do the same.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Wednesday, November 09, 2016, 10:40:21 AM
This sounds silly, but I honestly have fought back tears a few times today.  I understand the sentiment of the distrust in the political system, I was there once* myself.  I understand (to some degree) the plight of small town America; I lived in Ohio, where DHL single-handedly decimated the town of Wilmington.  But to elect this guy?  This guy?!  It's an unmitigated disaster for everyone.

What does small town and rural America really expect Donald Trump - a New York billionaire who already has his own products manufactured overseas - or the Republican party in general to do for them?  What good is a huge tax cut (which far and away helps the wealthy more than anyone else) to someone who has no income?  How is it going to help our debt and budget deficit?  And that's to say nothing about the actual man that's going to be sitting in that office: a sensitive, racist bigot; a demagogue.

I echo what Que said: it's the worst possible outcome.  It's bad enough that we have Trump the person sitting in the office, but now we've given complete control of the government over to the Republicans at virtually every level.  You might as well kiss goodbye many consumer and progress-friendly regulations like 'Net neutrality.  Say hello to even more rampant domestic surveillance and endless pursuit of security (not that the Dems have been much better in this regard, to be honest).  It also gives future hopefuls a new roadmap to election: be bold, abandon tact, hurl insults and frankly flat-out lies about your opponents or the incumbents, and be willing to burn it all down.  Think this election was bad?  Just wait for the next one or the one after that.

The other huge sore spot is Obamacare, the evil abortion of what should have been the birth of a European-style (and Canadian-style) single-payer healthcare system.

As far as Obamacare, I don't really see why it is such an abomination.  It is, at the very least, an improvement over what came before it.  It's really just a federal version of the system put in place in Massachusetts under Mitt Romney's leadership.  I agree that it doesn't go anywhere close to correcting what is wrong with health care in the Unites States, but it's all the Republicans would let Obama get away with.  In it's current form, it's just an an attempt to force more people - especially healthy people - to carry health insurance in order to bring overall premiums down, plus some additional and necessary restrictions like preventing most uses of the pre-existing condition issue.  To my knowledge, it was in fact cheaper than purchasing a health care plan on your own prior to the ACA's passage because more people were in the system.  Ever done COBRA prior to the ACA after getting laid off?

I just think repealing the ACA is counter-productive.  It benefits no one.  I'd like to see us move to more socialized healthcare and find a way to bring costs way down and coverage way up, but that's definitely not happening for the next four years at the very least.  I just know that the current system blows, whether you are using an ACA plan or not.  Most employer-supported plans are really just subsidies for unhealthy, diseased, or severely injured people.  Your deductible is so high you never reach it and are paying out of pocket for everything in addition to paying the premium, but you can't just not have the insurance because the insurance company negotiates the prices of services down and you pay extremely high prices without it.

But yes, overall I absolutely agree that a single-payer system like Canada and Europe would be very desirable.

I've been saying for months, to family and friends, that there was no way to know what the results of yesterday would be, until yesterday had passed.  Polls mean nothing when non-confrontational people--including the so-called silent majority--are afraid to admit they're voting for Trump.  The division got that ugly, the fear of retribution that overpowering.  That fear does not carry into the anonymous voting booth.

I know it's anecdotal, but that really surprises me.  I live in Coral Springs, Florida, in Broward County.  It's a middle to upper-middle-class neighborhood.  I saw gaggles of people waving Trump signs on University Blvd. & Sample Blvd. every weekend.  There were at least five houses in my neighborhood sporting Trump signs.  I never once saw anyone show any sort of outward support for Clinton.  But Broward County went blue.  Where were these communities where Trump supporters were afraid to speak up?

I'm not saying you are wrong, but it just surprises me.  The turnout also surprises me.  I was worried about a lowered turnout for liberal voters, as that's always their achilles heal, but I never expected the huge turnout in the red counties.  There is a lot of pent-up rage out there, apparently, and these people think Donald Trump is their champion for some reason I'm not sure I will ever understand.

* ...until I learned that some of the political backroom dealing, pork barrel politics, and difficulty pushing through extreme changes is actually necessary to prevent mob rule leading towards outright anarchy. Read this article (http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/07/how-american-politics-went-insane/485570/) in The Atlantic for an extremely enlightening take on how political parties, Congress, and the American political and electoral system has changed over time, opening the door for the dangerous populism we are witnessing today.
Title: This
Post by: Pugnate on Wednesday, November 09, 2016, 01:10:36 PM
Morning After To-Do List:
1. Take over the Democratic Party and return it to the people. They have failed us miserably.
2. Fire all pundits, predictors, pollsters and anyone else in the media who had a narrative they wouldn't let go of and refused to listen to or acknowledge what was really going on. Those same bloviators will now tell us we must "heal the divide" and "come together." They will pull more hooey like that out of their ass in the days to come. Turn them off.
3. Any Democratic member of Congress who didn't wake up this morning ready to fight, resist and obstruct in the way Republicans did against President Obama every day for eight full years must step out of the way and let those of us who know the score lead the way in stopping the meanness and the madness that's about to begin.
4. Everyone must stop saying they are "stunned" and "shocked". What you mean to say is that you were in a bubble and weren't paying attention to your fellow Americans and their despair. YEARS of being neglected by both parties, the anger and the need for revenge against the system only grew. Along came a TV star they liked whose plan was to destroy both parties and tell them all "You're fired!" Trump's victory is no surprise. He was never a joke. Treating him as one only strengthened him. He is both a creature and a creation of the media and the media will never own that.
5. You must say this sentence to everyone you meet today: "HILLARY CLINTON WON THE POPULAR VOTE!" The MAJORITY of our fellow Americans preferred Hillary Clinton over Donald Trump. Period. Fact. If you woke up this morning thinking you live in an effed-up country, you don't. The majority of your fellow Americans wanted Hillary, not Trump. The only reason he's president is because of an arcane, insane 18th-century idea called the Electoral College. Until we change that, we'll continue to have presidents we didn't elect and didn't want. You live in a country where a majority of its citizens have said they believe there's climate change, they believe women should be paid the same as men, they want a debt-free college education, they don't want us invading countries, they want a raise in the minimum wage and they want a single-payer true universal health care system. None of that has changed. We live in a country where the majority agree with the "liberal" position. We just lack the liberal leadership to make that happen (see: #1 above).
Title: The Guardian Weighs In
Post by: Pugnate on Wednesday, November 09, 2016, 02:31:00 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/09/donald-trump-us-president-nightmare?CMP=fb_gu
Title: Re: This
Post by: scottws on Wednesday, November 09, 2016, 02:37:10 PM
3. Any Democratic member of Congress who didn't wake up this morning ready to fight, resist and obstruct in the way Republicans did against President Obama every day for eight full years must step out of the way and let those of us who know the score lead the way in stopping the meanness and the madness that's about to begin.

I disagree with this.  The GOP under Obama was simply a party of obstruction.  They had no policy other than "Whatever Obama says, we're against it."  They had a historically low approval rating because of this.

No one wants that.  We want the government to govern.  We want it to get things done (hopefully at least some of the things we like and hopefully not most of the things we don't).

Besides, the Republicans had a majority in the Senate and the House of Representatives for most of Obama's eight years.  The Democrats do not hold a majority in either part of Congress.  While (I think) it is possible they can take over the Senate during the next midterm election, they likely won't have the possibility of a majority in the House of Representatives until after the next census and subsequent redrawing of congressional districts.  Maybe not even then if Republicans still control most of the state's governments at that time.

Basically, it will be extremely difficult for them to obstruct anything the Republicans want to do.  Well, I suppose they could use filibuster in the Senate.

It'd be nice if the government worked towards unifying the population, not continuing to divide it.  That said, I think part of this is propaganda.  Mainly from Fox News and Breitbart, but MSNBC is guilty as well.  I hate when conservatives complain about "mainstream media" and act like Fox News isn't part of that.  Fox News is the worst offender!

We live in a country where the majority agree with the "liberal" position. We just lack the liberal leadership to make that happen (see: #1 above).

Leadership is a problem yes.  Voter apathy and lethargy among the liberal populace doesn't help, but I suppose you could say that at least party ties back to leadership.

As a liberal, I was extremely disappointed by the choices this year.  Jill Stein of the Green party is a complete loon, so forget her.  The Democratic candidates were all sub-par.  The one I liked most was Bernie Sanders, but can you imagine how soundly he would have been defeated vs. Clinton?  Wow.  I just couldn't believe how the Republicans had so many candidates they had two different sets of primary debates for awhile, while the Dems had like three people.
Title: Re: This
Post by: K-man on Wednesday, November 09, 2016, 03:22:11 PM
  Wow.  I just couldn't believe how the Republicans had so many candidates they had two different sets of primary debates for awhile, while the Dems had like three people.

There's no one on the bench for the Dems.  Someone is going to have to step up, otherwise this fiesta is going to last for 8 years.

Although with the way this has all gone down I am not sure I am qualified to make any predictions as to what the Democrats need.  Past precedent suddenly means way less than it used to.

Title: Re: This
Post by: gpw11 on Wednesday, November 09, 2016, 04:52:35 PM
There's no one on the bench for the Dems.  Someone is going to have to step up, otherwise this fiesta is going to last for 8 years.


I think the fact that there is no one on the bench for the democrats isn't really an accident. I mean, I don't know anything more than any of you but I have a feeling there are potential candidates there that haven't been given a chance.

Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Pugnate on Wednesday, November 09, 2016, 04:56:51 PM
It's not silly. I was near tears too. A lot of people were. It's just the idea that this bigot known for sexual harassment and God knows what else is in charge of the most powerful country in the world.

New statistics are out and it isn't the poorer masses who voted for him. In fact, they voted for Hillary. The educated working classes voted for Trump.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/09/globalisation-dead-white-supremacy-trump-neoliberal?CMP=fb_gu
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: gpw11 on Wednesday, November 09, 2016, 05:03:41 PM
Honestly I think Trump is the least of your worries.  The republican party now has all of congress and (presumably) the supreme court on lock down.  As much of a complete dumbass Trump is, he's a bit of a wild card - there are far more terrifying Republican politicians out there.


Fuck, I'd take Trump before Cruz or Carson any day.


 
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: ren on Wednesday, November 09, 2016, 05:23:41 PM
This is not the end of anyone's world, not anyone who isn't an outlaw anyway.

I disagree. Trump is a climate change denier and the US is the world's biggest emitter. Considering we're already over 400 parts per million and at best in damage control, this puts a huge question mark on the future. The US can  choose to screw up its economy and lower the quality of life of it's people all it wants but we only have one planet and the whole world took a big step backwards in preserving it yesterday.
Title: Re: This
Post by: K-man on Wednesday, November 09, 2016, 05:25:27 PM
I think the fact that there is no one on the bench for the democrats isn't really an accident. I mean, I don't know anything more than any of you but I have a feeling there are potential candidates there that haven't been given a chance.

To have any real chance someone will have to step up and be an all star in around 2 years time.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: ren on Wednesday, November 09, 2016, 05:27:15 PM
Outside of the environmental factor, I'm not as worried about Trump and the Republicans as I thought I would be. They're like dogs chasing cars. They complain about everything and spew hyperbole about how it would be so much better if they were in charge. Obama was the devil and everything he did was awful. Well they're off the sidelines now and I would be surprised if they're able to put their money where their mouth is.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Cobra951 on Wednesday, November 09, 2016, 10:01:37 PM
tart=68&end=140
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Pugnate on Thursday, November 10, 2016, 10:55:51 AM
Video is private. :(
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Thursday, November 10, 2016, 01:47:55 PM
I saw it earlier.  It was a clip from Stephen Colbert's The Late Show where he responds to the (then surprise) news that it was looking more and more like Donald Trump was going to win the election.  He kind of appears shocked for a little bit but then transitions to a segment where he says that we need to unify as a country and lists of a bunch of funny things that everyone has in common.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Pugnate on Thursday, November 10, 2016, 02:09:26 PM
Oh yeah I saw that.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: idolminds on Thursday, November 10, 2016, 08:58:02 PM
This sums up a lot of Trump supporters I've seen online today.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cw7KZlxVEAAkMt9.jpg)
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Cobra951 on Thursday, November 10, 2016, 10:46:00 PM
Quote from: Stephen Colbert
By every metric, we are more divided than ever as a nation.... More than four in 10 voters say the other party's policies are so misguided they pose a threat to the nation, but you know what? Everybody feels that way. And not only that, more than half of Democrats say the Republican party makes them afraid, while 49 percent of Republicans say the same about the Democratic party. So both sides are terrified of the other side, and I think that's why the voting booth has a curtain so you have some place to hide after the election is over.

How did our politics get so poisonous? I think it’s because we overdosed, especially this year. We drank too much of the poison. You take a little bit of it so you can hate the other side, and it tastes kinda good. And you like how it feels. And there’s a gentle high to the condemnation, right? And [faces the camera] you know you’re right, right? You know you’re right.
https://www.bustle.com/articles/194212-this-transcript-of-stephen-colberts-election-night-speech-urges-americans-to-laugh-in-the-face-of
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: ren on Friday, November 11, 2016, 08:31:57 AM
If this was in response to my post all I'll say is that it's incredibly unfortunate that science is politicized in America to such an extreme. Social issues, gun rights, jobs policy and the like are all very cultural and subjective and that's fine but scientific consensus should not be something that falls to partisanship.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Friday, November 11, 2016, 08:50:33 AM
If this was in response to my post all I'll say is that it's incredibly unfortunate that science is politicized in America to such an extreme. Social issues, gun rights, jobs policy and the like are all very cultural and subjective and that's fine but scientific consensus should not be something that falls to partisanship.

I agree 100%.  One of the most terrifying things about the rise of the "alt-right" (e.g. Ted Cruz) is an anti-science agenda.  They've been trying to do things such as trying to pass laws that force schools to deemphasize evolution and teach it alongside things like intelligent design, at least on a local or state level.  Or corrupting the meaning of the word "theory" in a scientific context: "Oh, that's just a theory."  The word theory in science is akin to fact.

The entire success of the human race and the Western world in specific is based partly on luck but mostly on scientific advancement.  Teaching an entire generation of kids to distrust science threatens to send us into another set of dark ages.  And I don't just mean from an enlightenment perspective, but from a public health perspective.

I told my fiancée this morning that we need to form a new country.  The divide in ideology between factions here is becoming so vast on a fundamental level as to nearly be irreconcilable.  Maybe we should allow people that want to reject science and put people into office that will enact policies and laws that are flatly against their own best interest to ruin themselves without taking everyone else down with them.

Of course, this isn't very realistic and I'm only half serious.  Besides, the divide isn't exactly regional.  It's cities vs. the rest, so it isn't remotely practical.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Quemaqua on Friday, November 11, 2016, 11:33:15 AM
I once wrote a fair portion of a novel where the cities were the remaining bastions of reason and had shut themselves in and become self-sufficient governmental states, and everything else outside them was a nightmarish wasteland of roving gangs and insane religious zealots. I have thought back to it occasionally with complicated feelings.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Cobra951 on Monday, November 14, 2016, 10:12:28 AM
(http://img15.deviantart.net/13b7/i/2013/349/8/9/v_for_vendetta___my_turn_by_heroforpain-d6h77mz.jpg)

MY TURN


You may think it ironic that I chose that particular allusion to lead off some counterpoint.  I think it's spot-on.  What was a progressive anti-establishment movement for tolerance and inclusion has become the intolerant elite establishment.  I have witnessed that personally over the past 45 years.  It is now impossible to advocate the needs and wants of middle America without being insulted, ostracised as a bigot, fired, or otherwise socially destroyed.  As a result, no one dares do it in the public eye.  Well, almost no one.

I mentioned earlier that Obamacare is an evil abortion instead of what should have been the birth of a proper single-payer healthcare system.  This hope is one of the two reasons I voted for Obama in 2008, the other being the hope of a tighter leash on corporations, and the return of jobs to America, particularly where I make my home.  Both hopes were dashed.  Instead of taking care of normal working people who can't afford insurance, the new law now coerces them into spending money they don't have.  The typical scenario is poor, but not destitute people who were formerly uninsured, and now pay several hundred dollars a month on a plan with deductibles in the thousands.  So in the end, they are thousands of dollars poorer per year, with absolutely no benefit, because they'll never satisfy that deductible.  Hell, they'd still have to stay away from expensive healthcare, just as before, because they can't afford to bleed out the deductible.  Obamacare may work for people who have nothing at all.  And people affluent or lucky enough to have other insurance don't need it.  Everyone else is in the hole because of it.  I myself am in a quandary over this.

We have an insidious mortal enemy, and we know who he is, even if the current administration likes to pretend we do not.  I said before, I think in one of my fits of rage on a nearby thread, that I would vote for whoever promised to go after him.  Only one candidate, going all the way back to the start of the presidential race, made it a clear point to not only acknowledge the foreign threat, but promise to go after him.  We need to have a secure country before we can debate whether it's on the right path or not.  The devil must be paid his due.

Social agendas pale in comparison to the pain suffered by so many across this great country.  They have taken center stage for far too long, and it's time to switch the focus to what affects the many, not the few.  The few have gained extensive ground in their fights, and I am glad for them.  I hope they at least acknowledge, if reluctantly, that they are not the only squeaky wheel anymore.

Illegal immigration has been an ongoing issue for what seems like forever.  No one has been able to deal with it.  See my first paragraph.  If Mexicans looked like rednecks instead, the problem would be a lot less difficult, wouldn't it?  Just because they're ethnically different doesn't mean they can do no wrong.  They know they're Mexicans.  They know it's illegal to cross the border and stay here indefinitely.  They do it anyway.  No one effectively stops them.  I'll remind you that I am latino myself.  So are a great number of Floridians.  Florida went red this year.  Why?  Because the latino community in Florida are mostly citizens of this country, many of them my compatriots.  They do belong here.  Why would they want competition for jobs and other resources from unimpeded foreigners?

Climate change may be very real.  The fight centers on whether humanity is responsible for it, and whether there is anything they have the power to change even if they are responsible.  Nature spews 95% of the contaminants in the atmosphere itself (volcanic eruptions--which render moot decades of pollution data--and forest fires, which can happen even without humanity, and would burn on for longer without humanity to fight them).  And there are significant swings in average temperatures through the ages.  We can't suspend using gas and oil.  Our entire existence depends on it.  And we can't afford to have the costs of energy suddenly multiplied, or see our means of transportation and heating rendered obsolete and unusable.  Clinton attacked coal-producing states directly, and made enemies of nearly all of them.  Much of the sea of red in the middle of the country probably has much to do with that.

What happens from here, we'll see.  I have no illusions of Trump being any kind of lone savior.  My hope is that he does the same thing any other successful businessman does--delegate authority to highly qualified team players, who can further his vision competently.  Regardless, the country as a whole better acknowledge and accept that it's a new day.  Let's see how much tolerance and understanding is forthcoming when the shoe is on the other foot.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Monday, November 14, 2016, 11:58:53 AM
This is going to be long, but I want to start out by saying that 1) I acknowledge and respect your perspective, opinion, and choice 2) I only really disagree with two of your points.

My own concerns that drive my own political agenda are mostly about Wall Street, corporate capture of government, executive compensation and wealth inequality, privacy/liberty, religion at the expense of science, health care, the future of the Earth, and education.  No one party satifies me in all of these regards, but the Democrats come closest.  I'm worried that with Republicans having nearly unrestricted power in the federal government that every last one of these things will just continue to get worse.

I have two main concerns with Donald Trump.  The first is just his complete lack of class.  He isn't remotely Presidential.  Less so than even George W. Bush.  Frankly, as an American, I find it embarassing.

My far bigger concern with Donald Trump's election is the fact that it has given the Republicans total control of the federal government and that alone will have effects far beyond the 4 - 8 years that President-elect Trump will serve.  Consider that not only will he choose the potential appointee for the current vacant seat on the Supreme Court, but Justice Ginsberg is 83 years old and Justice Breyer is 78.  There is a not-insignificant chance that he might have the opportunity to choose three Supreme Court justices.  That's just the way it goes, I know, but this could turn out to be a catastrophe for a long time to come.  Do we really need more decisions like Citizens United v FEC?

Regarding global warming, of course you are right about there being natural factors and natural climate cycles and there is little to nothing that can be done about those things.  But the fight about whether or not it can be attributed to humans?  That fight is over.  Have you actually read up on the science on this topic?  You mentioned volcanoes.  In 2007, global volcanic CO2 output was estimated to be about 200,000,000 tonnes, while global fossil fuel CO2 output was estimated to be about 26,800,000,000 tonnes.  In other words, volanic CO2 output is estimated to be less than 1% that of human output (or at least it was back in 2007).

It has the potential for massive impact.  It's just that the climate cycles are long; therefore, it would be generations before the changes are tangible and, yes, it may result in major industrial shifts that can affect communities.  But even the Department of Defense considers global warming to be a national security threat.  We can't do nothing because of a bunch of coal miners.  We are talking about the human race, nay, all plantetary life as we know it.  I mean, it's inconvenient and it sucks for those people and their families, but it's hardly the only time whole industries have experienced job loss.  Last I checked, typing pools aren't a thing any more either if you need an example.  Frankly, I think these people and everyone else would be better served by national infrastructure improvement projects or something akin to that (think FDR's New Deal).

Regarding ISIS and other Islamic fundamentalists, I do agree that they are a threat, but I don't agree with your statement about security.  Perfect security is impossible.  So I have to ask: what is your vision for security?  At what point would you say that we are secure?  How much liberty are you willing to sacrifice in order to gain this security?

Me?  I think we've already given up too much.  In order to gain tiny incremental improvements in security, we are going to have to give up massively more and more liberty each time.  At what point do you stop?  When you have the Thought Police or the Pre-Cogs and are not only tried and convicted before you've even done anything, but have every essence of your thoughts already known to the authorities?

I'll remind you that I am latino myself.  So are a great number of Floridians.  Florida went red this year.  Why?  Because the latino community in Florida are mostly citizens of this country, many of them my compatriots.  They do belong here.  Why would they want competition for jobs and other resources from unimpeded foreigners?

The story in Florida is very complex.  The county with the highest percentage of Hispanics is Miami-Dade (65% of the population there is Hispanic), and it voted overwhelmingly for Hillary Clinton (63.7%).  Next you have Hendry County (49.2% Hispanic population) and it voted Donald Trump by a wide margin (55.8%).  Then again, Miami-Dade's total population in 2013 was over 1.6 million and Hendry was under 20 thousand.  In general, the counties with the largest populations voted Hillary while the less populous counties voted Trump, regardless of percentage Hispanic population.  I don't think that's a surprise to anyone at this point, considering that's the story across most of the U.S. and that seems to be due to the general feelings that you relayed above due to the issues you've raised as well as others.

I acknowledge that small town and rural America has really suffered the last couple of decades.  Technological advancement leading to more and more automation as well as high labor rates relative to many other countries have decimated those that work or used to work in the manufacturing sector.  The service and information jobs that exist in cities generally don't in the small towns and rural areas because it just doesn't make economic sense for companies.  I just don't know what can be done about it.  I mean sure, there can be things like tax policies that encourage companies to do domestic manufacturing, but how do you ensure that the manufacturing will be done with humans instead of robots?  If you create an environment where U.S. companies can't compete with foreign ones, they will close and that doesn't benefit the cities or the less populated areas.  I'm not saying there isn't a solution or that a different set of policies can strike a better balance.  I'm just saying that I don't have a clue what might not only be feasible but, more critically, actually work.  Perhaps Donald Trump and his team will have ideas that are both of these things.  Personally, I think it's more likely that they will result in something far worse.

Again, Cobra, I absolutely respect your opinion and do personally enjoy engaging with people that have a different perspective.  I think it's through such dialogue that we can move forward together.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Cobra951 on Tuesday, November 15, 2016, 06:58:08 AM
On the volcano output, I'm shockingly wrong.  My figure was 200 gigatons, while yours was megatons.  That's a factor of 1000, which obviously changes everything.  According to this article (http://www.livescience.com/40451-volcanic-co2-levels-are-staggering.html), it's a lot higher than your figure, and the author thinks there is more silent  outgassing to be found worldwide, but that would still leave me off by a huge factor.

I can't argue with the math, provided it sticks.  My gauntlet of challenges is this:

(1) Is climate change real, or political?
(2) If it's real, are we responsible?
(3) If we're responsible, can we fix it?
(4) if we can fix it, what is the cost?

Assuming I'm past 2 now, let's move on to 3.  Obviously, the US acting unilaterally can't fix this.  I suspect that China alone emits more pollution than we do, and there are many more serious polluters.  Then there is deforestation in places like the Amazon--multiple global factors.  We've been on the path to clean up our act since the 70s, while the emerging nations have been ignoring pollution and green awareness in general as we did in the 60s.  Since we can't fix it alone, and the world doesn't play nice with us, doing something radical that would hurt us deeply in the short run makes no sense.

When I ask the cost, I don't simply mean economically.  What I said before still stands: we absolutely depend on burning stuff to survive.  Without it, we can't move, we can't have electricity, we can't move or purify water, and we can't produce food in the required quantities to feed all of us.  Some of this can be changed fairly quickly with nuclear power (which itself brings great dangers), and perhaps creative uses of natural power like wind in some places.  The entire infrastructure of individuals cannot.

At times, being a democracy is a huge disadvantage.  When Clinton said “We’re going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business”, she basically shot herself in the head.  She didn't know it then, but she did.  That goof alone may have made all the difference.  Most of us vote out of self-interest, as regular people, not as scientists or altruists.  The last thing in middle America's mind is climate change.  That is the truth.

Regardless of this global issue, too much was wrong with our government for the normal, average citizenry to overlook.  I think Trump got in more as a slap in the face against Washington insiders than as a Republican nominee.

You mentioned giving up too much for increments in security.  This is a big part of what has me extremely unhappy with how we're dealing with the enemy.  It's a reactive policy, not proactive.  We need to be hunting him, not cowering at home.  I'm not going to get deep into this now.  I already have before, and I regretted it.

However you want to analyze the Florida vote, I don't think it's possible that state would have gone red if the latino community had risen en masse to oppose it.  Knowing myself, knowing my family, I have little doubt that there was as much division in that community as there is among the rest of us.  My sister works for the school system in Iowa, as a translator and unofficially general helper to the illegal immigrants there.  She's fed up with how she and her husband have to work their asses off, while these people are given everything for free, most recently including iPhones.

Anyway, it will be an interesting time next year.  I am extremely sorry I voted for Obama in '08.  Perhaps I'll come to feel the same way about my vote this year.  But I doubt it.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Tuesday, November 15, 2016, 07:30:27 AM
I'm glad you took another look at the climate data and were able to update and correct the information you had.  I see what you are saying regarding how to handle global warming.  The question definitely is, now that we know what we know, where do we go from here?  There's certainly a balance to be struck.  But we already know (or at least have very good reason to believe) that doing nothing will be catastrophic.

You're right about the fact that acting in isolation could put us at a competitive disadvantage globally and won't have the needed impact on the reduction of carbon in the atmosphere.  But we can't simply fail to act at all just because we think others might not.  We're the worlds #2 emitter of CO2 and #8 per capita.  It's not like we are #100.  If we take action, it can have a significant impact.

I always use an infosec example here because I think it's easier to get across.  Given any IT environment, there are going to literally be thousands of security holes.  As an infosec professional, you do what you can to address the ones that are the highest risk and also the ones that are quick and easy.  But you will never get them all as new ones appear all the time and, for some of them, you just have to accept the risk.  You'll frequently encounter resistance along the way from people in the form of "Why bother doing x when y exists?"  As an example: "Why bother blocking USB drives when I can just email information to an external account?"  The point I'm trying to make doesn't have anything to do with the actual answer to that question.  The point is if I and other infosec and IT professionals had such an attitude, nothing would ever get done and the organizations we work for would be exposed to significantly more risk.  We can't eliminate the risk entirely, but we can certainly reduce it.  Shouldn't we at least try?  In fact, aren't we obligated to try given the alternative?

Regarding global competitive disadvantage by "going green" if no one else does, I don't think that's a given.  In fact, it has the potential to actually improve the domestic economy as we would have a good chance of being the global headquarters for green technology in that scenario.  I think that's actually playing out to a certain degree with things like wind turbine and solar cell manufacturing.

It could go either way.  I just know that I'm personally willing to hurt coal miners today if it means that we won't turn the planet into a desert in 100 or 200 years.  Then again, I'm not a coal miner so that's easy for me to say.  You said it yourself: people tend to vote out of their own self-interest.

Regardless of this global issue, too much was wrong with our government for the normal, average citizenry to overlook.  I think Trump got in more as a slap in the face against Washington insiders than as a Republican nominee.

I absolutely understand the concept of a protest vote and I would agree that's what happened in this election.  Similarly, a desire for change in the way the federal government was conducting business was one of the primary reasons I voted for Obama in 2008 (2012 was a different story, but that's a discussion for another time).  I'm sure that you remember that his overriding message during his 2008 campaign was for "change" and "hope".

What I don't understand, personally, is Donald Trump being that protest vote.  To me, it's not much different than a bunch of people filing a protest vote and electing a dog simply because the dog isn't a politician or part of the establishment.  Sure, it sends a message.  Sure, it blows things up.  But is that really a good thing?  Really?

John Oliver described it as electing an Internet troll as President.  I'm inclined to agree.  I think you'd have to admit that he does sure share a lot of things in common.

Anyway, it will be an interesting time next year.  I am extremely sorry I voted for Obama in '08.  Perhaps I'll come to feel the same way about my vote this year.  But I doubt it.

I have to be honest.  I would be surprised if you don't regret it in the future.  Let's put aside Trump's behavior during his campaign for a second.  Have you seen who he chose as his chief strategist?  The guy that runs Breitbart, the preeminent alt-right/Tea Party/extreme right wing propaganda machine/troll factory?  Are you okay with that?  If so, the divide between us is a lot larger than I thought it was.

Oh, and there is a good chance he will get to choose four Supreme Court justices, not the three I mentioned.  I'd overlooked one of them who was previously appointed because he was appointed by a Republican president.

Given your position on single-payer health insurance, I find your support of Trump to be interesting.  He is actively against that very thing.  Obama was for it, but just couldn't get it done given the Congressional makeup and climate at the time.  Propaganda spewed by Fox News at the time didn't help at all.  What resulted was the Affordable Care Act, admittedly a pretty shitty compromise.

Trump wants to repeal the ACA, which basically means that health care goes back to what it was before.  Forgetting a single-payer system for awhile, whether the repeal of the ACA is a good thing or not depends on who you are.  If you are a healthy person that simply can't afford the insurance and everything works out so that you don't get significantly injured or ill or contract a disease while you have no insurance, I suppose it's better.  But if you are someone that's been diagnosed with a chronic disease and insurance companies don't want to cover you or want you to pay a premium that is well out of your financial reach, it's far worse.

You and I agree.  A single-payer system would be ideal, but the Republicans (and Donald Trump) aren't going to allow that to happen.  Personally, I think our pre-ACA system is the worst possible system.  I'd even prefer a private system where employers aren't part of the picture at all over what we have today or pre-ACA.

The high deductible thing isn't a feature or even necessarily a side-effect of the ACA.  That was already starting before Obama was elected.  I remember when, while working for a small business in Cincinnati in 2007, the health insurance coverage offered by my employer changed to a high-deductible plan at the same time that the cost per paycheck increased.

I suppose time will tell if Trump will be a better President than Obama.  I don't see how it's possible as I personally think Obama did a pretty decent job overall, especially with a flatly obstructionist Congress.  But we will indeed see.  As an American, I hope that he does succeed in helping America overall because, to a certain degree, his success is my success too.

However you want to analyze the Florida vote, I don't think it's possible that state would have gone red if the latino community had risen en masse to oppose it.  Knowing myself, knowing my family, I have little doubt that there was as much division in that community as there is among the rest of us.  My sister works for the school system in Iowa, as a translator and unofficially general helper to the illegal immigrants there.  She's fed up with how she and her husband have to work their asses off, while these people are given everything for free, most recently including iPhones.

That's what I was trying to say.  At least for Hispanics, it seems that geography (proximity to cities) had more influence on which way the vote went rather than ethnicity or race.

I think you've got a real good head on your shoulders and sound arguments.  Your logic led you to vote for Donald Trump (or at least that's what it sounds like).  I don't agree with it at all, but I can't tell you how you should feel.  In any case I'm glad you voted regardless, even if it contributed to an outcome that I don't like one bit.

Edit: Lots of content addition and modified summary.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Quemaqua on Wednesday, November 16, 2016, 04:10:21 PM
Like I said in the other thread, I totally understand why people voted for Trump, and I absolutely don't think even 20% of those people were hardcore racists, bigots, or anything else. They were just folks fed up with the status quo, and many of them had more or less valid reasoning in casting their vote as they did. I didn't even 100% disagree with Trump's messaging, as at least some of the time he was clearly trying to address real problems. I just didn't see much value in his proposed solutions, and believed even less that these were issues he truly cared about. Given what he's been saying and doing before even being officially appointed, my opinion has not changed.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Pugnate on Saturday, November 19, 2016, 08:35:28 AM
I don't think a lot of these adjustments for carbon emissions are that expensive in the long run. In fact, profits have gone up.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2015/04/16/lower-carbon-higher-profit/#4499f159772d
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Pugnate on Saturday, November 19, 2016, 08:36:21 AM
I can't believe an American president-elect tweeted this:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/799974635274194947

Extraordinary.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Quemaqua on Saturday, November 19, 2016, 12:05:03 PM
Have to give him that he has a great talent for lying and distracting people from everything that actually matters. I think he's more of a politician than we gave him credit for.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Pugnate on Friday, November 25, 2016, 02:35:18 PM
I have a friend who is a mother of 2 and has stage 4 breast cancer. She says the only way she's managed to hang on so far is because of support from Obamacare.

Here is a hilarious video from Oliver:

Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Thursday, December 08, 2016, 11:51:04 AM
Someone linked me to an and article on The Daily Dot (http://www.dailydot.com/layer8/why-trump-got-elected/).  It's sort of like that article from Cracked in that it is from the perspective of someone from small town/rural America and why they voted for Donald Trump.  I think it echos a lot of what Cobra already told us here.  Basically, economic recovery and growth only occurred in the cities and people viewed Hillary as just continuing more of the same.

Again, I acknowledge the frustration.  To be honest, I was even aware of the decline in small town and rural America but I was sort of resigned to the idea that it is just inevitable.  In any case, I am glad to read such well thought out pieces that provide some additional perspective.  But what I don't understand is getting behind Donald Trump as that specific agent of change.  The man is clearly not a leader that is going to unite America and drive it towards some sort of utopian 1950's combined with 2016 future.  He, his policies, and the policies of his advisors and appointees are just going to further prop up large business and the wealthy.  The damage his policies are going to do to the protection of consumers and citizens will be astounding.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Thursday, December 08, 2016, 12:25:28 PM
This piece on Politico (http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/09/donald-trump-ideas-2016-214244) is far more interesting.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Cobra951 on Saturday, December 10, 2016, 06:12:00 AM
This piece on Politico (http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/09/donald-trump-ideas-2016-214244) is far more interesting.

On that, I agree wholeheartedly.  The Daily Dot piece was little more than "no, duh!" but this one gets to the heart of the matter much more clearly and incisively than I've been able to grasp myself.  And I have been trying.

Quote
the post-1989 order rooted in “globalization” and “identity politics,” which seems to be unraveling before our eyes.

. . .

. . . (1) borders matter; (2) immigration policy matters; (3) national interests, not so-called universal interests, matter; (4) entrepreneurship matters; (5) decentralization matters; (6) PC speech—without which identity politics is inconceivable—must be repudiated.

These six ideas together point to an end to the unstable experiment with supra- and sub-national sovereignty that many of our elites have guided us toward, siren-like, since 1989.

. . .

. . . “Globalization” and “identity politics” are a remarkable configuration of ideas, which have sustained America, and much of the rest of the world, since 1989.  . . . [This configuration] presumes that sovereignty rests not with the state, but with supra-national organizations—NAFTA, WTO, the U.N., the EU, the IMF, etc.—and with subnational sovereign sites that we name with the term “identity.” So inscribed in our post-1989 vernacular is the idea of “identity” that we can scarcely imagine ourselves without reference to our racial, gender, ethnic, national, religious and/or tribal “identity.” Once, we aspired to be citizens who abided by the rule of law prescribed within a territory; now we have sovereign “identities,” and wander aimlessly in a world without borders, with our gadgets in hand to distract us, and our polemics in mind to repudiate the disbelievers.

What, exactly, is the flaw with this remarkable post-1989 configuration of ideas? When you start thinking in terms of management by global elites at the trans-state level and homeless selves at the substate level that seek, but never really find, comfort in their “identities,” the consequences are significant: Slow growth rates (propped up by debt-financing) and isolated citizens who lose interest in building a world together. Then of course, there’s the rampant crony-capitalism that arises when, in the name of eliminating “global risk” and providing various forms of “security,” the collusion between ever-growing state bureaucracies and behemoth global corporations creates a permanent class of winners and losers. Hence, the huge disparities of wealth we see in the world today.

The post-1989 order of things fails to recognize that the state matters, and engaged citizens matter. The state is the largest possible unit of organization that allows for the political liberty and economic improvement of its citizens, in the long term. This arrangement entails competition, risk, success and failure. But it does lead to growth, citizen-involvement, and if not a full measure of happiness, then at least the satisfactions that competence and merit matter.

. . .

. . . What is going on is that “globalization-and-identity-politics-speak” is being boldly challenged. Inside the Beltway, along the Atlantic and Pacific coasts, there is scarcely any evidence of this challenge. There are people in those places who will vote for Trump, but they dare not say it, for fear of ostracism. They think that identity politics has gone too far, or that if it hasn’t yet gone too far, there is no principled place where it must stop. They believe that the state can’t be our only large-scale political unit, but they see that on the post-1989 model, there will, finally, be no place for the state. Out beyond this hermetically sealed bicoastal consensus, there are Trump placards everywhere, not because citizens are racists or homophobes or some other vermin that needs to be eradicated, but because there is little evidence in their own lives that this vast post-1989 experiment with “globalization” and identity politics has done them much good.

The opposition to the post-1989 order is not just happening here in America; it is happening nearly everywhere. The Brexit vote stunned only those who believe in their bones that the very arc of history ends with “globalization” and identity politics.

There is a lot more exposition to be digested there, but this, I think, is the motive force.  He's to be forgiven for thinking Trump killed the Republican party.  He wrote this before the election.  If anything, Trump has unified and strengthened the party.  They all know they need to huddle around him.

Thanks for that, Scott.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Wednesday, December 14, 2016, 07:59:44 AM
Check out the "discourse" in the comments in this article on The Hill (http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/310309-harvard-professor-says-gop-electors-are-close-to-blocking-trump#).  Absolutely unbelievable.  There is a left leaning idiot in there hurling insults, but the majority of the idiocy is clearly on the part of Trump supporters.

I fear we are heading for another set of Dark Ages. An age where science, truth, exceptionalism, and education is looked down on, suppressed, and hidden. And for what? What do these people think they have to gain, exactly? What do they even want? Have they actually spent any amount of time thinking about it? I do not know. It sure doesn't seem like it.

They just spit venom at the other side, mostly failing to make any sort of point. And when their chosen leaders' policies continue to fail them, they'll just continue to say stuff like "liberalism is a disease" and complain about "libtards" and "pussies" and tell people to "go cry to [their] mommies". I guess so long as they get to lie down in bed at night, sleep tight, and think they "won", that's all that really matters.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Cobra951 on Wednesday, December 14, 2016, 03:31:01 PM
At this point, the commentary is no better than what we get on youtube videos.  The rampant ignorance and stupidity make the whole thing little more than random noise.  I have completely shut out the rabble, and all "news" about the rabble.  The election is over.  It's over!  I wish everybody out there would get a fucking grip.  They should count the days to 2020.  It would calm their nerves and occupy their puny minds.


Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Saturday, January 07, 2017, 05:27:51 AM
Here's an article from the NYT about Trump and the Republicans erasing every last bit of Obama's legacy and why that doesn't really make sense.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/01/06/opinion/erasing-obama.html?referer=
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Cools! on Tuesday, January 10, 2017, 10:55:53 PM
(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/3c/3cd4c574db4569bd887e7ebce1dd4e5cab803059cca51333b4631e908d37eb66.jpg)
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: idolminds on Wednesday, January 11, 2017, 10:27:36 PM
After todays press conference....yeah, we are so fucked.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Quemaqua on Wednesday, January 11, 2017, 10:42:03 PM
Concur. What a shitshow.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Thursday, January 12, 2017, 09:32:11 AM
I just don't get why he focuses on such stupid stuff.  Imagine if Obama got all bent out of shape and sidetracked when someone said something bad about him...
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Cobra951 on Thursday, January 12, 2017, 10:45:24 AM
I agree.  Someone needs to advise him on that.  (Maybe they already have, but he's too stubborn to listen.)  He's not campaigning anymore, but he still acts like it too often.  When he isn't going off on some tirade against CNN or whoever, what he says is not usually out of line with the conservative ideology--which should be no surprise to anyone.  The one real surprise, which he reiterated in the press conference, is his stance against companies moving production out of the country.  He threatened a stiff border tax to back that up.  One automaker reportedly changed their minds about opening a plant in Mexico as a result.  This is not a typical pro-business Republican position.  I've been advocating tax-based punitive measures against outsourcing for a very long time, and it's ironic that a Republican president is the first to follow that tack.  I voted for Obama in '08 expecting action along those lines, which of course never happened.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Quemaqua on Thursday, January 12, 2017, 12:48:02 PM
Was that something that actually happened, or another thing he took credit for when the company had already changed plans of its own accord? I don't disagree with you on the potential usefulness of punitive tax measures, but most of Trump's ideology so far has been exactly the opposite tack.

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I think deserves to be posted: www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-press-conference-folders-business-plan-empire-blank-fake-handover-donald-jr-eric-a7523426.html

I spent 10 years working in a government office packed with lawyers dealing with court orders, judicial records, and other legal documents, and my job before that was running an engineering printer for United Airlines that printed literally thousands of pages of engineering documents every morning. Literally the first thing I thought during the conference when somebody got a shot of the pile of papers was, "Those are props with nothing printed on them." They didn't even look like what freshly-printed papers look like. And then they didn't let anyone look at them, making the entire gesture worthless.

I was also astounded that he left multiple questions totally unanswered, and retreated unceremoniously to let his lawyer do half the talking for him in the first press conference he's given in ... I don't know, what's it been? Six months? And he lambasted Clinton for not having a press conference for 150 days, or whatever it was, and here he goes and does the same thing, then basically gets onstage to tell the American people he has no regard for governmental ethics. Cool.

Suppose it's to be expected given that Tillerson and company have been doing the same thing throughout their confirmation hearings.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Monday, January 16, 2017, 08:48:52 AM
Check out @realDonaldTrump's Tweet: https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/820764134857969666?s=09

This guy is going to be our President in a few days.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: idolminds on Monday, January 16, 2017, 04:00:19 PM
I'm glad he is keeping us up to date on the important issues facing this country, such as his opinions on the quality of modern SNL.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Quemaqua on Wednesday, January 25, 2017, 12:44:35 AM
Quick summary of recent stuff that concerns me:

Trump has started the process of ramming through the Keystone XL and Dakota Access pipelines by signing an executive order, has put hiring freezes in place for NPS, told multiple public agencies to stop communicating with the public and press, and apparently they're now gearing up for talks of ending the Syrian refugee program and suspending Muslim majority country visas. He also has apparently completely ignored multiple governors reaching out for help after a big batch of storms/tornadoes that have ravaged large portions of the southeast. He then tweeted his intention to "send in the Feds" if "Chicago doesn't fix the horrible 'carnage' going on.'" So ignores requests for help while threatening to send either the National Guard or army into a US city to institute, presumably, martial law.

Oh, and while this is unconfirmed, a source on the transition team supposedly said that there are plans to eliminate the National Endowment for the Arts and National Endowment for the Humanities, which largely fund NPR and PBS.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: idolminds on Wednesday, January 25, 2017, 08:47:03 AM
He pushed a couple tweets this morning:

Quote
I will be asking for a major investigation into VOTER FRAUD, including those registered to vote in two states, those who are illegal and....

even, those registered to vote who are dead (and many for a long time). Depending on results, we will strengthen up voting procedures!

He has convinced himself that he actually won the popular vote but there were millions of illegal votes so it doesn't look like it. So now hes going to waste taxpayer money on trying to prove a lie to protect his ego. And since hes fine with lying it wouldn't surprise me if they go ahead and disenfranchise millions to make it "true".

It's continually amazing how thin skinned he is. He WON the election but still isn't happy with the result, because he didn't win the popular vote. Thats all that matters to him, popularity. It's why hes lying about the size of the crowd at the inauguration. It must be eating him alive knowing that and he has the lowest approval rating of any recent president taking office. And its only downhill from here.

EDIT: Important to remember that Trump's lawyers argued in court that there was no voter fraud in challenging Stein's recounts.

EDIT2: Just in case you weren't convinced everything is about his ego. (https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/01/25/praise-president-trumps-bold-action)
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Cobra951 on Wednesday, January 25, 2017, 09:42:45 AM
I'm a bit puzzled about that last link.  It's just a collection of other links (not surprisingly favorable, given they're coming from the White House).

The question of illegals voting has not really been addressed satisfactorily by anyone.  In a fair number of states, particularly liberal ones, asking for voters to identify themselves credibly is seen as an affront to civil rights.  I strongly advocate subsidized national IDs for anyone who can't afford the traditional methods of such identification.  What I can't get behind is letting anyone walk up to a polling place, claim to be John Doe, American citizen and state resident, and getting a voting ballot without question.

My sister works with illegals in her state's school system.  She tells some alarming stories of these people bragging about having voted.  Anecdotal, to be sure, but not hard at all to swallow when one considers the practically nonexistent ID requirements, and the large concentrations of illegals in certain states.

Edit:  I'm not advocating the investigation of this particular election.  We live in a representative republic consisting of 50 states, not a flat democracy like ancient Greece.  The election results are amply clear, with or without the popular vote.  But we do need to make sure that no one is using the Voting Rights Act as a cloak to hide fraudulent votes.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Wednesday, January 25, 2017, 10:38:53 AM
I don't have much to say about Trump at this point. It's clear he's an extremely thin-skinned narcissist that has a penchant for passing off easily verifiable falsehoods as facts.  On top of that, he is playing a strategy where he is trying to completely control the messaging in such a manner that it smacks of something straight out of 1984.  Any hope I have that he'll get over himself, be the President, and just focus on policy and being the leader of America is fading rapidly. 

Regarding the voting issues, IIRC, there have been several studies of voter fraud.  The findings are that voter fraud does exist, but it is such an infinitesimally small portion so as to basically be a problem not worth further time and effort.  Check out the John Oliver episode about it (http://grist.org/politics/john-oliver-explains-how-voter-fraud-is-a-problem-but-only-among-politicians/).  Additionally, many studies of voter ID laws show that they target the poor and minorities with almost laser precision.  Most of these laws claim to be about curbing voter fraud, but really they are just about suppressing voters that are more likely to vote for Democrats.  This is a very good starting point (http://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/research-and-publications-voter-id).

It really makes sense when you look at the whole picture.  The Republican party has been making moves for a long time now to consolidate their position from gerrymandering to reducing the powers of other parts of government that they don't control to crafting voter ID laws that hurt their opponents' chances.  Frankly, I'm also inclined to believe that the Republican party has been committing a long time war on education in order to craft a less educated, more ignorant populace and also seeding distrust in the media in order to stand up "alternative messaging" that they have complete control of.  Combined, these things could create a large portion of the populace that is easily swayed to believe things that are false.  This, combined with their consolidated position and attempts to stack the deck against their opponents makes them formidable.

Just look at it.  Forget the social issues for a moment and just look at what Republicans do and say they want to do.  They are the party of the wealthy and big business.  Almost everything they do is for them at the expense of the general citizenry and the lower and middle classes.  Their policies on the environment reflect a concern about the effect of environmental controls on the bottom line of corporations.  Their policies on regulations favor corporations over citizens and consumers at every turn.  Given how many people actually benefit from such policies vs. how many are harmed by them, how do they even get elected?  By stacking the deck when they have the opportunities, creating distrust in the truth, and through propaganda.

I used to think I might have my tin foil hat on a little tight but given what we've seen over the last year, I'm not sure that it's very far-fetched at all.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Quemaqua on Wednesday, January 25, 2017, 06:20:44 PM
The trends have to some degree been visible, but now they're glaringly obvious. You can tell a lot about a person or party from what they do when suddenly given free reign after a period of resistance or inability. The Republicans have shown their hand here. I'm speaking of the actual politicians here, of course, and not the voting populace, which I think is increasingly being thrown into confusion as they're continuously thrown to the wolves, a few loudmouthed Trumpers notwithstanding. Whatever doubt there may have been before about Republican intentions (and there was some, even for me as an independent), these actions really can't be read any other way by an educated person: we aren't even going to throw you a bone, unless you count a lie or two to placate you, and we don't give a shit about what you think so long as we control you and how you spend your money. Ethics mean nothing to these people. Human rights mean nothing. And the useless Democratic party continues to twiddle its thumbs while refusing to pull its collective head out of its collective ass (again, the politicians, not the people; I've seen more Democrats furious with their party than I ever have in my life).

It's a mess, and getting worse by the minute.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Cobra951 on Wednesday, January 25, 2017, 10:10:37 PM
I don't have much to say about Trump at this point. It's clear he's an extremely thin-skinned narcissist that has a penchant for passing off easily verifiable falsehoods as facts.  On top of that, he is playing a strategy where he is trying to completely control the messaging in such a manner that it smacks of something straight out of 1984Any hope I have that he'll get over himself, be the President, and just focus on policy and being the leader of America is fading rapidly. 

I thought that was funny.


Regarding the voting issues, IIRC, there have been several studies of voter fraud.  The findings are that voter fraud does exist, but it is such an infinitesimally small portion so as to basically be a problem not worth further time and effort.

My brother Tony and I have had the same conversation, and he made the same argument.  Problem is it doesn't wash.  It's a simple matter of logic and understanding human nature.  If you put a neon sign over your house reading "All friendlies welcome", then you leave your door not only unlocked but wide open, leave the lights on, then go on vacation, studies showing low crime in your neighborhood won't keep the place from getting ransacked.

The ID problem can be solved.  But this is a dogmatic issue for the left, with the power and closed-mindedness of religion (like too much of our current politics in general).  Even suggesting that everyone needs to carry valid ID is heresy, which would be met with indignant accusations.  As I said before, I am all for subsidizing IDs for the poor, to dispel the notion that it has anything to do with race, class, ethnicity, or party affiliation.  Few will listen that far.

The saddest thing is that at this moment everyone is entrenched in a hostile stance.  No one will budge.  Each side has declared war on the other, and there is no room for agreement, only for victory or defeat.  The press as a whole are completely untrustworthy.  Everything I read smacks of partisan propaganda.  The left in particular can't seem to accept that their way of thinking is not the only one, or that they resoundingly lost in November.  They are doing everything in their power to delegitimize the duly elected administration of this country, and their tendrils extend deep into the dominant media machine.   I don't know who to trust, so I trust no one.  Maybe we should all study Yugoslavia to remind ourselves of how bad this kind of rift can get.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Thursday, January 26, 2017, 03:36:38 AM
I'm all for solving the voter fraud issue if it was a problem actually worth solving. Did you read any of the information I linked? Don't you find it just a little bit ironic that one of the people at the forefront of the voter fraud issue shamelessly commits voter fraud themselves in their statehouse?

Presented with such evidence, I don't see how anyone could truly maintain the issue is anything other than another Republican power play.

Regarding your statement of the divide formed in this country, it really goes back to what I said about the right playing the long game.  They have made moves that harm education, increased messaging that creates distrust in the media, and stood up alternative messaging. When a huge group of people has been taught to deny truths out of hand and presented with "alternative facts" (read: compete lies), this is the result.

I know this is anecdotal, but I find it tough to have good conversations and debates these days with people that lean right. Over the last year, out of all the people I spoke to, literally only three people could express rational right-leaning thoughts that were conducive to any sort of useful debate. You are one of them. The rest?  Their statements are nothing but pure ignorance laced with phrases like "Obama is the Antichrist", "Crooked Hillary", "Shillary", "libtard", "pussification", etc.  They parrot the bullshit hocked by such balanced news sources as Conservative News, To Be A liberal Is To Be a Hypocrite, Breitbart, InfoWars, and RT of all fucking places. 

In the face of Donald Trump's constant and clear lies, they say "Yeah well Madonna said she wanted to blow up the White House!", somehow ignoring that she is a has-been pop artist from the 80's while Trump is the President of the United States right now. Perhaps one should be held to the higher standard than the other? It doesn't seem that people think that way anymore. It's not about holding our leaders accountable anymore, even when they are otherwise on your side.

It's not like I'm completely wrapped in a leftist bubble either. My mother is staunchly Republican. A close family friend is basically Tea Party, if there is still such a thing. Most of fiancee's family are also extremely conservative. I make an effort to read right-leaning news sources such as The Hill and Fox News.  I'm just not impressed with the level of discourse coming from the right these days beyond all the policy issues I disagree with. It all just smacks of demagoguery.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Cobra951 on Thursday, January 26, 2017, 07:03:37 AM
This is good.  What you just said cuts to the heart of the divide, as illustrated in our own microcosm.  What you see on the right is what I see on the left--a steady stream of long-view attempts to normalize a social agenda, as if it were the only correct model for a free society.  This agenda is ensconced in identity politics, where race and gender matter more than merit, and where dissent is tantamount to fascism.

I'm about to turn 63, in exactly a month.  From the perspective of our little group here, I've been around for a very long time.  This doesn't give me an edge on intelligence or even wisdom; but it certainly does on experience and the long view.  I've been observing the dramatic, if slow changes in the country since 1970.  It's not a pretty picture.  To be sure, nothing was ever as rosy as I pictured it in my late teens and early 20s.  The erosion of our values and economic well-being are very real, however, particularly since the 80s.  The past eight years have given the left practically free rein to advance their views, and become ever more entrenched in them.  Now that their slant is being seriously opposed in all this time, they are acting like resistance in an occupied country.  Have they lost the capacity to understand what is relative and what is absolute?

No one can deny that Trump is a strange bird.  That he rose to the top in the electoral process goes to show how horrid the political establishment has become.  Out of all of those candidates that duked it out last year, he was the only one who spoke directly and unequivocally to the plight of the country.  No political insider has the guts to pursue action that runs afoul of identity politics, even when such action is sorely needed.  Trump clearly isn't groomed in CYA-speak.  Maybe he'll get better at it.  Or maybe he'll continue to think he can do whatever he wants for a while.  I don't care.  We clearly need a real leader now, and I'm not too concerned about the people who want to trip him up so badly succeeding at it now and then, as long as he actually pursues effective courses of action where they must be.  My post under the banner of Guy Fawkes covers those.

If he does go too far, there is always impeachment.  I don't see that ever happening.  We'll see what the future brings.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Thursday, January 26, 2017, 07:48:11 AM
I think the big reason for differences of opinion between you and I is merely that the things we consider important are different.

The economic hardship that some are complaining about doesn't affect anyone I know.  In fact, everyone in my family and social circle are living middle or upper-middle class lives.  From where I sit, the economy is actually on a tear and there are tons of jobs available.  We're actually having a hard time filling positions at work.

Regarding blue collar jobs, I do think tariffs will help a little bit in the short term but it's important to keep in mind that automation is eliminating as many or more such jobs as offshoring is and has.  Just look at garbage collection.  If anything, there is more garbage to be collected nowadays but instead of three guys on a truck (one driving and two hanging off the back) it is now just one guy driving and operating a remote arm.  Automation in the form of machine learning and AI will start taking over white collar jobs within the next decade.

On one hand automation helps increase productivity and decrease costs but there is a tipping point.  Eventually, we'll have so many unemployed that there is going to be a sharp rise in crime and/or a drain on social programs.  This is going to be a huge problem, probably in my lifetime.  Border tariffs will be ineffective when that time comes.  I wish I knew the solution.

Republicans love to act like they care for the blue collar worker these days, but their policies don't really bear this out.  They continue to reduce the power of unions that used to fight for wages and benefits and are doing nothing to stem the rise of the extreme wage inequality that has been going on the last 20 years.  They remove "burdensome" regulations to reduce the costs businesses suffer, but these same businesses just line the pockets of their executives with the excess and then outsource or automate their low and middle-skill positions.  We already know that what Republican politicians used to call trickle-down economics don't have the intended result, yet they keep doing pushing these sorts of policies.  It doesn't work.  And it doesn't have anything to do with how hard someone works.  Not really.

Regarding social issues and identity politics, I'm inclined to agree to a certain extent.  People are people.  If anything, identity is a regional thing now rather than racial or sexist.  That said, we do still have a ton of identity issues we're dealing with in this country.  I think the Black Lives Matter movement is indicative of that.  But I don't think it's useful any longer for politicians, especially Democrats, to base policies on identity.  It's what burned them so bad in 2016.

The issues that I think are most important are public health and education.  The Republican positions here are both pretty dismal, IMO.  Now, don't get me wrong, I'm a believer in private education and non-free college; I just think that public education offerings from K - 12 should be robust.  It ends up benefiting us all.  It has the ability to create people that can better contribute to society from an intellectual, artistic, and economic standpoint.  It (should) also have the secondary effects of reduction in certain types of crime and a reduction in the need for large social welfare programs.

Instead, what Republicans like to do is point out the poor performance of our public schools as a reason to reduce funding (why throw good money after bad, right?).  But then they again point at the lackluster state of public education that inevitably results and further reduce the resources available.  Repeat ad infinitum.  Is anyone surprised at the result?

Public health is a thornier issue, but I don't believe that a person's health should be a for-profit endeavor.  This has already created a ton of situations where a bunch of diseases that otherwise might be cured are instead chronic conditions that require lifetime treatment because the economic incentive for health care and pharmaceutical providers is to treat rather than to cure.  It's tough though because there is no way to force people to live healthy lifestyles.  You can't effectively make people not smoke or drink, for example, and the people that don't end up subsidizing those that do.  Of course, on the flip side, we already are doing that in our current health care insurance system so I don't see what the big deal is.

Edit: I just wanted to add something in your response to the "erosion of our values" comment.  To me, values are a familial thing.  It's your parents' and maybe religion's job to teach you a value system.  Nothing really stops you from having your own values, though I suppose societal pressures could create issues for people whose values become increasingly niche and ostracized.  People don't want their values legislated onto them.  To me, legislators imposing some sort of Christian value system via law is not at all different than a Middle Eastern regime imposing sharia law.  Now, I can already see a right wing reader to this comment saying "but the left has been trying to impose their values on everyone for decades!"  But have they?  If a law allowing for abortion is passed, is it suddenly illegal to be pro-life?  Pretty sure no one is going to force abortions on anyone.  Pretty sure a pro-life woman is still allowed to believe abortions are wrong.  Everyone is free to practice their own value system, societal pressures notwithstanding.

Also, from where I sit, I don't understand how someone focused on values would choose Donald Trump as a candidate.  If erosion of values is a major concern, isn't he basically the polar opposite of the type of leader you would want?

Edit 2: Regarding your comment about the left acting like resistance in an occupied country... I'm not sure that's fair.  That's not to say I don't understand why you said it, but I think you just lack some perspective.  Take it from me, most people on the left are still in downright shock that DJT is our President.  Que and I both used the phrase "worst possible outcome" to describe Trump's election.  I still believe it.  Someone like Paul Ryan, Rand Paul, John Kaisich... I wouldn't have loved it, of course, but I could handle it.  DJT?  To me it's like an own-goal in soccer.  It's like blowing up our own country.  Time will tell, but I am not encouraged by what I've seen so far.

Additionally, you have to keep in mind that there is clearly a wide spectrum of beliefs in this country.  And now you have basically just one side of those beliefs in complete control of the federal government and in control of a large majority of state governments.  Even in the first half of Obama's first term, Dems only had control of the Presidency and Congress, not the Supreme Court, and then they never had Congressional majority in either house after that.  So I don't want to hear about how the left has just had the run of the place for the last 40 years.  That's plainly false.

Lastly, DJT lost the popular vote.  I totally understand that the Electoral College is how Presidents are elected and there is no question that DJT won there.  But think about it like this: the candidate that less people overall picked ended up winning and, on top of that, this granted complete control of the government to basically one set of viewpoints.  People like me are thinking this: the will of a minority of people is going to have a massive negative impact on me, the future of America, and the future of the human race.

So when you find yourself confounded why people don't just accept the results of the election and quiet down, consider these things, because that's what "the resistance" is all about.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Cobra951 on Thursday, January 26, 2017, 10:51:46 AM
By values I don't mean Christianity, though the non-zealot forms of Christianity are a positive moralizing influence.  I mean things like work ethic, decency, the family unit, and generally law-abiding behavior.  I could turn the question around on you, and ask how could anyone with any values vote for Hilary Clinton.

Rotten fish, gamey bird, or starve.  We had to make a choice.  You know?

As for public health, Step 1 today is to trash the horror that is the (so-called) "Affordable Care Act".  What the Republicans are saying about is not just propaganda.  I personally know people in Southeast Indiana who are worse off now than ever because of it.  The worst example is this one lady who had no insurance before, and now is forced by law to pay $400 a month for health insurance with a $4000-a-year deductible.  So she gets a $4800 hit on her yearly income, making healthcare even harder to afford because of the high deductible.  Tell me how exactly this helps public health?  It may help the completely destitute.  Poor people with some income are a different story.

Let me give you another example: me.  I don't work, but I am not a drain on society.  Private means support me.  However, I can't under any circumstances afford health insurance.  I also don't qualify for heavily subsidized Obamacare because my imputed income is the household income, even though it isn't my house.  (I don't rent here; I just live here, in the family home.)  In order for me to get free healthcare, I'd have to move into a shack somewhere, and become a drain on society.  The new healthcare law now also means that I cannot be claimed as a dependent, because if I were, the home owner would have to provide me with health insurance, or pay a severe tax penalty.

Short take: I and my family are significantly worse off because of Obamacare--and I still have to pay for healthcare out of pocket.  How do you think we're going to feel when it comes time to vote?
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Thursday, January 26, 2017, 11:24:37 AM
I hear you on the ACA.  It does have many problems.  But, frankly, blame the Republicans.  The left has wanted public, single-payer system since at least Bill Clinton.  It's the Republicans that turned Obama's and both Clintons' vision into the what we have with the ACA today.  Everyone calls it "Obamacare", but it's actually closer to what Mitt Romney did in Massachusetts.

Personally, I think we either need to go away from the whole employer-based healthcare system and go to a much more competitive private market or go full single-payer.

Regarding HRC vs. DJT, it was admittedly a pretty horrible choice.  That said, I don't believe they were equally horrible.  I'm not sure it's worth belaboring this particular point; I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.  I've already made my feelings on DJT pretty clear.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Cobra951 on Thursday, January 26, 2017, 02:43:20 PM
I wholly agree about the horrible compromise on the healthcare law.  It should have simply been killed, rather than turning it into something worse than nothing.  And I did (and still do) want the same style of single-payer system enjoyed by the rest of the first world.  Fat chance of that happening under Republicans, I know.  But I'd much rather go back to where we were before Obama than to let the ACA do more damage.

Edit:
So I don't want to hear about how the left has just had the run of the place for the last 40 years.  That's plainly false."

. . .

 DJT lost the popular vote.  I totally understand that the Electoral College is how Presidents are elected and there is no question that DJT won there.  But think about it like this: the candidate that less people overall picked ended up winning and, on top of that, this granted complete control of the government to basically one set of viewpoints.  People like me are thinking this: the will of a minority of people is going to have a massive negative impact on me, the future of America, and the future of the human race.

Whoa!  8 years, not 40--though challenges to the political-correctness dogma have been few and far between in more like 30 years.

As I said, we're a representative republic comprised of 50 states.  If such a large nation is going to work out as a free society, you can't let a few huge population centers in even fewer states decide the outcome of presidential elections.  All you have to do is look at the islands of blue on the sea of red that was the USA on election day to understand what I'm saying.

There is a way to change the electoral process.  It's a Constitutional convention*, where a supermajority (3/4ths, I believe) of the states must ratify a proposed Constitutional amendment to change it.  Again, notice the emphasis on states, not population.  It's the way we've always been set up, and the only time someone thinks it's a bad idea is when they're on the losing end.  Understandable, but not persuasive for mucking around with the bedrock of our laws, principles and jurisprudence.

* Actually, a convention is not required, though it may be called for.  Regardless, 3/4ths of the states must ratify an amendment for approval.

https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/constitution

.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Thursday, January 26, 2017, 03:22:51 PM
Yeah, I'm familiar with what's required for changing the electoral process.  I know it sounds like sour grapes, but come on.  Considering that the Electoral College, concocted by Alexander Hamilton, was devised as a protection against populism and to ensure that a qualified candidate was selected, wouldn't you say that it failed its mission in 2016?  Not only did it not represent the will of most voters in this case (not that that was its purpose in any case), but it didn't even work as it was intended.

Whoa!  8 years, not 40--though challenges to the political-correctness dogma have been few and far between in more like 30 years.

The 40-year time span I was referring to was in response to this:  "I've been observing the dramatic, if slow changes in the country since 1970."  Even if you trim it down to the last eight years, that's false too.  The Democrats held only the Presidency of the three branches for six of those eight years, during which time jack all got accomplished due to Republican obstructionism in Congress.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Cobra951 on Friday, January 27, 2017, 06:59:55 AM
No, it's not false at all.  The democrat party in particular has gone from the party of the people to the party of the left, of identity politics, of transfer payments, and generally of social agendas.  How ironic that the workers would now unite against them under the Republican banner, don't you think?  There are very good reasons for that, starting with the fact that democrats no longer represent them.  We didn't have a gridlocked Congress in 1970.  The ruling parties could actually speak to each other, and come to necessary agreements and compromises.

It doesn't matter why the Constitution was framed the way it was.  It's still the law of the land.  In this case, I happen to agree wholeheartedly with the setup, and I have explained why in some detail.  To pretend we live in one huge state would mean most of the country between the East and West coasts may as well not vote in presidential elections.  The founders knew they weren't perfect or clairvoyant, so they left us a way to amend the Constitution.  If changes are deemed necessary, they must go through that wisely difficult procedure.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Pugnate on Sunday, January 29, 2017, 05:34:21 AM
This is scary:

https://twitter.com/resisterhood/status/825435325535252480
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Pugnate on Sunday, January 29, 2017, 05:35:05 AM
And watch this video:

https://twitter.com/Jess4_RK/status/825358392575266816
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Pugnate on Sunday, January 29, 2017, 06:19:25 AM
And this is just not American:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-muslim-immigration-ban-facebook-check-iraq-sudan-syria-mana-yegani-a7551256.html
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Sunday, January 29, 2017, 09:08:01 AM
No, it's not false at all.  The democrat party in particular has gone from the party of the people to the party of the left, of identity politics, of transfer payments, and generally of social agendas.  How ironic that the workers would now unite against them under the Republican banner, don't you think?  There are very good reasons for that, starting with the fact that democrats no longer represent them.  We didn't have a gridlocked Congress in 1970.  The ruling parties could actually speak to each other, and come to necessary agreements and compromises.

I'd agree that blue collar types are more likely to support Republicans, but that is not the same as the Republicans working for them. The support seems to be more about conservative social values than any economic policies, the latter of which almost exclusively harm the blue collar types.

I'd also go back to what I have already said about declining education and propaganda.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: iPPi on Sunday, January 29, 2017, 12:36:39 PM
It's only been a week... and it is hard to fathom what is yet to come. 
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Pugnate on Monday, January 30, 2017, 12:29:40 AM
interesting...
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Cobra951 on Monday, January 30, 2017, 04:49:11 PM


He transposed an 8 and a 4, saying 1948 when he should have probably said 1984 (at 06:32).  Other than that, I think this is spot-on.

Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: idolminds on Monday, January 30, 2017, 07:15:28 PM
Sargon of Akkad video. No fucking thank you.

EDIT: I'm being dismissive because I've seen this guys shit before. Hes big in the gamergate/anti-feminism circles and I have zero patience for these angry white youtube "intellectuals".
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Cobra951 on Monday, January 30, 2017, 08:55:26 PM
Don't know the guy.  I got there hopping across links from some of the chaos going on.  His main point here is that the left have completely lost their shit, and are acting like hysterical children.  If the left is ever to recover from the monumental rout here, in Britain, and an increasing fraction of Europe, it needs to reject the inflexible ideologues, and let the moderates take charge.  I thought his arguments were well thought out.

[snip]

Edit:  I'm going to take a step back.  There is too much fundamental division on this subject.  I won't comment further except to reply to comments or questions directed at me.  Sorry that I can't agree with the consensus here.  This group is important to me, much more than politics over which I have no control anyway.  I'll leave it there.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Tuesday, January 31, 2017, 11:41:00 AM
"Monumental rout"? Don't you think that's a bit hyperbolic?  Although a bit less than expected, the Dems gained seats in both the House and Senate and while, yes, HRC lost the Electoral College vote, less people voted for DJT than HRC.  Also, the governorship switched to the Democrats in the Republican powerhouse, North Caroina.

"Rout" isn't a term I'd use to describe the Republican victory in 2016, much less use the adjective "monumental" in front of it.  Yet you seem to be saying that we should just give up and let the right have its way.

You know America has lost its way when someone like HRC is thought of as a leftist inflexible idealogue.  She's about as moderate as they come.  Hell, in some political environments, she'd be thought of as a conservative.

Anyway, yeah it's probably best we agree to disagree at this point.  You aren't going to convince me that DJT's election was a good thing and I'm probably not going to change your mind about anything either.  I've already made myself clear how I feel about pretty much everything and anything I wanted to convey to you to give you some additional perspective has already been conveyed.

That said, I could see myself using this thread in the future to illustrate aspects of Trump's presidency that I find worthy of comment, so I'm not promising that I will completely stop posting in this thread.  :)

Edit: I just noticed that the smileys are broken.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Quemaqua on Tuesday, January 31, 2017, 04:57:08 PM
For what it's worth, I don't think any less of you for your perspective, Cobra, even though I disagree with it. I am a moderate, not a liberal, who was on the fence about which candidate was worse on the road up to the election. That began changing as the election drew closer, and there is no longer any question whatsoever given what's transpired in just the last week. Anyone who has spent any time studying world governments, and especially autocracies, despotisms, and all their close relatives, is terrified at what's happening in this country right now. As well they should be. I include myself in that category.

I have no qualms continuing to use the thread. My intention is never to offend anyone's political ideology. I fully understand why many voted for Trump, and why die-hard conservatives and liberals hold many of the values they do. But I definitely do not understand anyone who can't see what's happening now.

My summary to a friend of the events I noticed yesterday:

* 15 AGs standing up against travel ban.
* Quebec City shooter confirmed a hyperconservative Trump supporter despite damage-control spin by the right.
* People still being detained unlawfully and not allowed to see counsel despite federal court rulings. CBP telling attorneys to fuck off at Dulles even though attorneys have court orders entitling them to see detainees. Contempt orders are being sought.
* People being detained at airports have officially been asked if they love their country and if they are Christian. This is confirmed.
* Lots of tech companies came out and denounced the bans.
* Though Sessions nomination for AG vote was announced to be delayed, was supposed to happen today, I guess has been delayed until Wednesday? Republicans may now find themselves subjected to some of the stall tactics they utterly fucking abused over these last years. Highly advise you call your senators and demand they push back against Sessions. His track record shows him to be thoroughly unfit for office, along with basically every other Trump nominee.
* Lots more stuff came out about the bedlam at most governmental departments affected by the travel ban. In stark contrast to the WH "everything is fine" nonsense, everyone working in these departments was pissed off and saying no, everything is on fire. Apparently no warning. Similar story from airport and TSA people. DHS and State Dept. in turmoil.
* Jester Actual released a draft of the upcoming "Cyber Security" EO Trump had planned to sign today (did that happen? I just got home). Section 7d stated some interesting and scary shit about Secty of Defense and Secty of Homeland Security gathering and reviewing data from Dept of Education regarding math, science, etc.
* Military convoy with unmarked military vehicles bearing a Trump flag was seen driving down I-65 through Louisville yesterday morning. Pictures and video included, though of course that means less these days than it used to (though video remains reasonably compelling). Nobody in any event has any idea what the fuck that's about. Multiple government/military people were interviewed and were baffled. Hard to say if it's anything or not.

That's about all I have currently. But I'll leave this for your consideration:

https://twitter.com/RaRaVibes/status/826116204301516800
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: idolminds on Tuesday, January 31, 2017, 10:28:04 PM
Hey sorry Cobra, I didn't mean to shit on the thread. After seeing that guys videos for...god, 2 and a half years now? it caught me by surprise seeing one posted here. I had a kneejerk reaction.

I guess we're all going to see how this pans out but my magic 8 ball says "outlook not so good".
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Sunday, February 05, 2017, 06:46:28 AM
Well, I'm sure everyone is aware that the lunacy has continued. My favorite is the travel ban that was recently struck down. Not only have there been zero terrorist attacks in the U.S. from any of the banned countries sice 9/11, but DJT lashed out at the judge that struck down his ban by calling him a "so-called judge".  Hey Donald, guess what? Yes, he is an actual judge appointed by a previous President.

Here, I'll even post an article from a right wing news sources about it. Or is Fox News now also "mainstream media" that should be ignored?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/02/04/trump-lashes-out-at-travel-ban-ruling-by-so-called-judge.html
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Quemaqua on Sunday, February 05, 2017, 10:03:23 AM
There are about 20 other things I'd mention, but I don't have the time or mental energy. There's so much it's hard to keep up, which I think is intentional. Exhaustion is real and sustained campaigns like this in other countries have often worked to simply overwhelm and exhaust the opposition. But I'll update when I can find the time.

EDIT - Here's what I can do for now, just a couple things:

https://theintercept.com/2017/02/05/republicans-want-to-make-the-epa-great-again-by-gutting-health-regulations/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/animalia/wp/2017/02/03/the-usda-abruptly-removes-animal-welfare-information-from-its-website/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/government-reveals-over-100000-visas-revoked-due-to-travel-ban/2017/02/03/7d529eec-ea2c-11e6-b82f-687d6e6a3e7c_story.html
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-02-03/trump-to-halt-obama-fiduciary-rule-order-dodd-frank-review
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2017/02/03/trump-is-preparing-to-gut-wall-street-oversight-this-gives-democrats-a-huge-opportunity/
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-trump-deportations-20170204-story.html
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Sunday, February 05, 2017, 03:32:10 PM
The Dodd-Frank/fiduciary stuff really angers me. Repealing rules that require retirement advisors to act in the best interest of their clients? I don't even know ow what to say.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Monday, February 06, 2017, 01:42:10 PM
Tweet from DJT today:

"Any negative polls are fake news, just like the CNN, ABC, NBC polls in the election. Sorry, people want border security and extreme vetting. (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/828574430800539648)"

"Any negative polls are fake news".  The POTUS said this.  Let that sink in.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Friday, February 17, 2017, 04:27:47 AM
In his press conference yesterday, Trump continued his assault on the media and on truth and facts. I'm just going to copy and paste what I said elsewhere.

So there was a press conference yesterday...

I just finished reading some comments on a Fox News article about Trump's press conference yesterday, and I'm pretty flabbergasted. Not all, but many of the commenters were thrilled with the conference and his undressing of the news media.

I find this terrifying! It means that Trump's plan to continually call into question the honesty of the news media is working, for some people. These people are now open to alternative sources of media that are complete fabrications just because they like the message more.

How people trust this man's word I will never understand. Nothing but lie after lie after lie. For example his statement that he had the biggest Electoral College win since Reagan (not even close to a true statement). But yet, somehow, he is convincing people to ignore truth and relish in his own world of lies.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Quemaqua on Friday, February 17, 2017, 08:38:05 AM
This blew my mind coming from Fox News. Shep is straight upset:


It seems we're getting to a point where people are congealing into distinct camps along lines we might not have expected. Either you're willing to buy into Trump's bullshit simply because you hate the other side THAT MUCH, or you're likely beginning to see the realities of this administration. I don't think any of this has to do with partisan politics at all anymore. I'm not upset with Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians, whatever. I'm upset with a group of people unwilling to look at reality, so selfish that they would condemn anyone outside their circle just because someone gave them the option to. It's interesting how in some ways this whole thing HAS actually brought people together, those of us willing to actually look at fact and truth as a basis for making decisions, even if those decisions come out differently from one another. The dividing line I think is increasingly between THIS group, even where we differ ideologically, and those too angry, too undereducated, or too desirous of winning at all costs to give even the pretense of lip service to reason.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Friday, February 17, 2017, 09:10:38 AM
The people you are talking about are acting like it's a football game.  "My team won. Your team lost. Get over it!"

It's sad that they don't see the error in this sort of position.  The implications of a football game are basically nil and any that might exist typically end a short time after the game is over.  But that's it.  It doesn't affect the lives of people worldwide like the U.S. Presidency does.

Go read the comments on a Fox News article sometime.  It's like reading the transcript of some middle school bullying.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Cools! on Friday, February 17, 2017, 12:27:16 PM
For those interested here's a clip from the conference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOZqSADKEDA) where Trump talks about the media.

Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: idolminds on Friday, February 24, 2017, 01:14:41 PM
White House Blocks CNN, NY Times, Politico, LA Times, Others From Press Briefing (https://variety.com/2017/tv/news/white-house-blocks-cnn-new-york-times-press-briefing-1201995894/)

Not scary at all...
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Quemaqua on Friday, February 24, 2017, 04:11:11 PM
Not a classic fascist move at all. Not the kind of thing that happens in dictatorships across the world, and has for centuries. Nope.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Cools! on Saturday, February 25, 2017, 11:34:57 AM
Oh geez...
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: nickclone on Saturday, March 11, 2017, 01:50:09 PM
I'm a bit late on this one, but let me explain my experience with this election: I live in a town called Nokesville, its a rural town in Virginia, but close enough to go to places like Manassas, Alexandria, Fredericksburg, D.C., etc. I live in the sticks, but we're not completely cut off from civilization. However, I'm surrounded by republicans, I usually bite my tongue around them (I'm very political, but I actually read the news and can produce facts), but since Trump has been elected I've found that harder to do.

I wanted a Trump sign, I figured no way this idiot would win. I wanted a sign so I could show my kids that this idiot was the GOP's nominee and we could have all have a good laugh about it in 20 years. I wanted Bernie, but I figured Clinton was more than qualified over him. I even took the  next day off so I could stay up late, drink and watch the election. I figured it would over by 11pm like the last two, but by 11pm I knew it was over. I told my friends this and they thought I was being negative. When I woke up at 5am and saw they results, I went on a hard bender.

I hung out with the guy who lives above me, hardcore Trump supporter, eventually the conversation turned to politics. This guy was talking gibberish (he was drunk), but when I didn't agree with me he called me a Muslim. I'm not, I'm actually not religous at all, but it shouldn't matter. Trump supporters have a very aggressive "us vs. them" mentality...and them is basically everyone.

I used to respect my boss, but I can't do it anymore. We argue politics everyday, but I've backed off. Every fact that I use is "fake news" or every stupid thing Trump does is "apart of his plan". How do you debate with someone who doesn't recognize clear facts? I know its only been a couple of months, but Trump hasn't shown me anything that would make me believe he is capable of being president. I don't understand why republicans keep voting for morons. I always thought that you would want your leader to be more intelligent than yourself, not as smart or dumber than you are.

I'm drunk, just thinking about this makes me drink. I hope Trump is able to do everything he aims to do, maybe people then will finally see what they voted for. As I said, its only been two months and they buyer's remorse is strong with this one.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Monday, March 13, 2017, 09:18:55 AM
Trump likes the new jobs numbers, even though all previous jobs numbers under Obama were false before. Now they are magically real because... Trumpworld, I guess?

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/03/trump-monthly-jobs-numbers-sean-spicer-235936 (http://www.politico.com/story/2017/03/trump-monthly-jobs-numbers-sean-spicer-235936)

What a joke.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: idolminds on Tuesday, May 09, 2017, 09:37:50 PM
Trump, whos campaign is currently under FBI investigation for its ties to Russia, just fired James Comey, the director of the FBI and leading that investigation. Trump made his decision at the urging of Attorney General Jeff Sessions, who previously recused himself from the Russia investigation because he was implicated in it.

This is some real bullshit.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Cobra951 on Tuesday, May 09, 2017, 10:09:05 PM
http://video.foxnews.com/v/5428112485001/?playlist_id=2114913880001#sp=show-clips
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: idolminds on Tuesday, May 09, 2017, 11:02:43 PM
Yes, I'm sure Fox News/Hannity can justify anything Trump does.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Quemaqua on Wednesday, May 10, 2017, 01:29:09 AM
Yeah, that's a load of weak apologist horseshit, I'm sorry.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Cobra951 on Wednesday, May 10, 2017, 12:24:55 PM
Since I fell off the wagon, let me keep the bender going a bit longer.

Comey had to be fired.  The guy is cancer for the FBI and the DOJ.  The timing is unfortunate, but then again, the democrats and the media will not drop the absurdity about the President or his campaign colluding with Russia.  So there is never a time free of political hot water to do what needed to be done since the oath of office was administered to the President.

The Deputy Attorney General, confirmed by Congress by a 94-6 vote, and formerly appointed by President Obama to the US Attorney position in Maryland issued the letter recommending the dismissal of Comey.  The President concurred.

In terms of the Russian-influence circus, what does this move buy the President--intentionally or not.  Nothing.  If anything, it brings the whole brouhaha front and center in the media and the floor in Congress once more.  Is Comey now gagged by the loss of his job?  No.  On the contrary, he has far less rules and restrictions now than he did before.  He can be subpoenaed to testify freely about what he knows regarding Russia and the election.  Does the FBI suddenly lose the ability to investigate the same craziness because Comey isn't there.  Do they forget what they have already learned.  No, obviously.

So what nefarious advantage exactly does firing Comey gain the President?  Not a one.  It costs him politically.  It makes no sense whatever as a move to disrupt any ongoing investigations.  It is a politically costly move, and the right move.

And if nothing else, bear in mind that Comey was an appointee, not an elected official.  He serves at the pleasure of his bosses in the DOJ.  They decided he had to go.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Quemaqua on Wednesday, May 10, 2017, 06:45:19 PM
If you can't see it, God help you. I won't waste my breath. At the very least, if what you say is right, then Trump just continues to show what an absolute fucking buffoon he is by doing something that looks this bad, and all in a letter that reads like it was composed by a 12 year-old ("Hey, thanks for repeatedly telling me you weren't investigating me, but I'm firing you just in case!"), and he's obviously got nobody to tell him how bad it all looks. The man on how many occasions praised Comey? Like sort of, I don't know, basically over and over and over again during the campaign? Then suddenly, oops, Sessions, who recused himself from the investigation, recommends that Comey be fired. And now the agency investigating the President will have a new director appointed by the President. Nope, nothing looks fishy about that at all. Oh, and hey, hopefully no one notices that two other people involved in the investigation (Yates and Bharara) were also fired.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Pugnate on Friday, May 12, 2017, 05:00:48 AM
Quote
If you can't see it, God help you. I won't waste my breath.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Cobra951 on Saturday, May 13, 2017, 06:49:39 AM
If it weren't about something so important (like the future of the country and the world), this would be laugh-out-loud funny.  That is exactly how I feel about some of you.  If you don't see it, God help you.  And if enough of you don't see it in future elections, God help us all.

The left is in permanent temper-tantrum mode.  They couldn't get their way, so now they're going to throw a fit until they do, or until they make sure no one else gets their way.  The babies screaming and pounding their heads on the floor include the majority of the media and the Hollywood establishment, people with a lot of influence on the uninformed.  They have spun this tale about the White House being in cahoots with Russia--fucking Russia of all places, the unfortunate nation led by an archvillain akin to Lex Luthor.  A die-hard capitalist in league with hardline Communism.  That is so absurd that it should have been laughed away the moment it was first uttered.  Instead, the media keep fueling it, and political malcontents keep lapping it up.  I guess it makes sense from a viewership angle as well as a poison pill.

The investigation into Russia's alleged meddling is counterintelligence, not a criminal investigation of the President, or even his campaign.  The call by Chuck Schumer for a special prosecutor goes to show how invested Democrats are into the smear.  The guy is a jackass in every sense of the word.

The saddest thing is that I see no inclusive out to all of this.  There is no group hug on the horizon.  The left have made sure to turn what should have been the traditional peaceful transfer of power after an election into a civil war by other means.  And when war is waged against you, the only sensible choice is to bear arms and wage it back.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Saturday, May 13, 2017, 09:12:04 AM
The divide is on full display.

Politicians aren't known for being saints or paragons of truth, but Trump looks up to the sky and says "Wow, it's mighty purple today!"  Then he'll say he never said that, that he got his information from Fox & Friends and we should ask them why they said the sky is purple.  It is absurd.  You want to talk about temper tantrums?  Let me ask you: do you follow Donald Trump on Twitter?  I do.  He's a petulant child, as far removed from a leader as there ever could be.  When people correct his lie after lie after lie, he jumps on Twitter and acts like a petulant child.  And instead of attempting to unify the country under his leadership, he's more interested in deepening the divide.  But it's even worse than that.  He is a tyrant, questioning some of our most sacrosanct institutions such as the amendments in the Bill of Rights, including a free press, and an independent judiciary.

The House of Representatives voted to impeach Bill Clinton for lying about having sex.  Kinda looks silly with what we are dealing with now, no?  But I'm supposed to sit here and act like everything is a-ok?  That somehow the G.O.P. allowing big business and Wall Street to run roughshod over everyone is alright?  That having the world's most expensive yet somehow shitty health care is ok?  That having a national embarrassment of an educational system is ok?  That we should instead spend billions of our tax dollars on a useless wall or more on a military that is more expensive than the next seven nations combined?  Speaking of the health care situation, did you hear Trump compliment Australia's prime minister on their better health care system?  Of course, they have a single payer system and universal health care.

I'd laugh if I didn't want to cry.

It's one thing to vote out of self interest to try to remove the burden of the ACA's individual mandate.  That is something I can understand.  It's another to defend the G.O.P.'s shameless pandering to billionaires or the Trump presidency.  I just don't understand, and it's clear that I never will.  It's not even about the Russia thing, though where there is smoke there is often fire.  It's about everything.  Every.  Last.  Thing.

Maybe you are right, Cobra, that we are truly enemies.  I'm not too worried about the bearing of arms.  Unlike the popular belief that liberals are anti-gun, I've got a few in my closet too.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Quemaqua on Saturday, May 13, 2017, 09:18:43 AM
Well, I sold mine. You all want to kill each other, be my guest. I'm done with that line of thought. We aren't enemies, we're people being pulled apart largely by those who see it as an easy way of keeping us down, and by ourselves because we're too unwilling to engage in any reasonable discourse thanks to countless years of pointless ideological polarization that no longer requires any prerequisite of thought to engage in, if it ever did.

Cobra, we're already watching our rights, privacy, environment, and healthcare erode, and the future of this country rapidly go down the toilet, even if we 100% don't believe in anything related to Russia. I don't know that Trump himself had anything to do with Russia, though there is certainly some evidence to suggest so; but people in his camp clearly did in some capacity or other. It deserves to be looked at. And make no mistake, any cooperation there would not be about ideology. By my way of thinking, that's where you veer into iffy territory. You seem to think that these people actually give a fuck about Communism or Capitalism. They don't, at least not in this capacity. What they care about are power over the governed and money in their own pocket. You also seem to think that Communism and Capitalism are polar opposites and no ideology can ever find ways to span the gap, in which case you should look at the many shifting permutations of Communist thought and different interpretations of Marxism-Leninism that floated around Asia during its many revolutionary periods. China certainly took a lot of Capitalist lessons without resorting to Democracy. Ideology means fuck all when money and power are at stake (or the continued existence of a regime) and most capitalists (as well as most communists, and most anyone else in power) are real flexible with ideological and moral stances when it comes to gaining more of either commodity.

Also, I can't let this slide: nobody has better displayed temper-tantrum mode at the expense of reason and the public good than the GOP, now and over the last 8 years. Am I fan of the Democratic party? Not at all. Not right now, not in the past. Politics in this country is widely fucked on both ends of the spectrum, but sitting around pointing fingers at the "other side" is what got us in this mess to begin with. What we need to be pointing at is blatant illogic, reckless disregard for the populace, and drastic change designed to benefit those in power at the expense of the citizenry, wherever it comes from. And there has been nothing to convince me whatsoever that that's not 100% the goal of this administration. This has come from both sides in the past, but neither Clinton, Bush, nor Obama (none of whom I was ultimately that happy with, and all of whom overstepped their bounds) were doing shit like what's going on right now. You can continue to buy the party line if you like, but don't accuse me of doing so.

Power was peacefully transfered. It was also then immediately plied toward extreme abuses against the public good, and this administration has been anything but traditional—and while I'm all for a shakeup, this is not the way. The war you're waging is a war against the will and wellbeing of the majority of the American people, not some imagined Leftist ideology. That exists, to be sure, but not in the masses of average Americans who are pissed off and scared, which increasingly includes informed Republicans, not just Democrats and Independents. Just because you're conservative doesn't mean you're automatically okay with the wholesale dismantling of oversight agencies, the demolition of any sense of net neutrality, privacy rights, etc. Conservative thought used to veer more toward less government and more personal agency. These days it's more law, more police power, less accountability, and more regulation—yes, just because they advertise it as "less", it's merely regulating on the other side, allowing these companies to do things the American people don't want them to do. Be sure that not every conservative is okay with that, which is why you have a growing number of conservative Independents and Libertarians.

Anyway, all that said, do me a favor and dispense with the "babies screaming" bullshit. Show me, your other friends here, and a legitimately worried nation some respect. You're not the only human being capable of thought, and just because someone disagrees with you, or happens to share some percentage of an opinion with a celebrity or journalist (not all of whom are on the Left, by the way), doesn't make them uninformed.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: K-man on Saturday, May 13, 2017, 09:57:41 AM
The left is in permanent temper-tantrum mode.  They couldn't get their way, so now they're going to throw a fit until they do, or until they make sure no one else gets their way. 

Replace "left" with "right" in that statement, and suddenly you're referring to Obama's tenure.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Saturday, May 13, 2017, 10:05:38 AM
Que, thanks for your post.  You expressed the same opinions and feelings I share in a much more reasoned manner than I did.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: idolminds on Saturday, May 13, 2017, 10:59:32 AM
Quote
The investigation into Russia's alleged meddling is counterintelligence, not a criminal investigation of the President, or even his campaign.

I'm just going off what the FBI director said about the investigation. (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/mar/20/fbi-director-comey-confirms-investigation-trump-russia)

Quote
“I have been authorised by the Department of Justice to confirm that the FBI, as part of our counterintelligence mission, is investigating the Russian government’s efforts to interfere in the 2016 presidential election,” Comey said.

He added: “And that includes investigating the nature of any links between individuals associated with the Trump campaign and the Russian government and whether there was any coordination between the campaign and Russia.”

Comey said that the investigation included the possibility that criminal acts had been committed.

Also keep in mind that the Russia investigation is not a response to Trumps win. The investigation started well before the election back in late July 2016, which would be around the time of the conventions.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: ren on Saturday, May 13, 2017, 11:31:32 AM
It's very strange that the discussion here has been framed as a left vs right issue. I understand that's how it's framed in the media but I expected that normal people could actually discuss an issue without this very uncomfortable and unnecessary partisan lens.

If this conversation was about the corporate tax change, border-adjustment tax, free trade agreements or any number of other general groupings typically define political parties, sure, but you're talking about the legitimacy of the presidency.

If there's any suspicion that the election was illegitimate, every single person should be demanding to know the truth. I dislike almost everything about Trump but I 100% want an investigation to prove he won legitimately and without interference because the alternative is a whole lot scarier. Even if this whole thing was manufactured by the Democrats like some people believe, it needs to be proven. Democracy as an institution is fragile and is seemingly under attack in America. Why is everyone distracted by defending replaceable and ultimately unimportant political parties and people when the institution itself is at risk.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Quemaqua on Saturday, May 13, 2017, 12:45:41 PM
Well said, Ren. My thoughts exactly.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Cobra951 on Sunday, May 14, 2017, 12:45:29 PM
I always cringe when I rouse up the courage to come in here.  Sticking with the metaphor of the errant alcoholic on a bender, I knew it was very bad for me to post in here again, but I did it anyway, and more than once.  I'm going to try one more time to stay away, but not with some soapbox tirade.  The fact is these times are different, unique in my lifetime.  There is no desire for left and right (sorry, Ren) to come together and work things out.  The fundamental divide in how we see things is just too broad and deep.

So I'll let this guy have the last word. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7r2qsEfU-s)  Skip ahead to 13:12 if you think he's a right-wing dittohead for Trump.  Some things are just too obvious for anyone willing to take a step back and get some perspective.

And I never meant to imply a shooting civil war with actual firearms.  I think I specifically said "civil war by other means" right before the "bear arms" comment.  If that wasn't clear, I'm making it so right now.  I like to speak in metaphors and similes.  I guess I got myself into some hot water with this one.  Sorry.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: K-man on Monday, May 15, 2017, 06:27:44 AM
There is no desire for left and right (sorry, Ren) to come together and work things out.  The fundamental divide in how we see things is just too broad and deep.

I think you're wrong.  It's my personal experience that the moderate left and right wishes everyone would get their shit together.  The issue is that both sides are effectively being identified by the loonies who reside at the far end of the spectrum.  Those are the voices being heard.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: PyroMenace on Monday, May 15, 2017, 07:32:31 AM
There is no desire for left and right (sorry, Ren) to come together and work things out.  The fundamental divide in how we see things is just too broad and deep.

The issue is that both sides are effectively being identified by the loonies who reside at the far end of the spectrum.  Those are the voices being heard.

Man... I honestly couldn't agree more with both of these.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Monday, May 15, 2017, 11:09:55 AM
I always cringe when I rouse up the courage to come in here.  Sticking with the metaphor of the errant alcoholic on a bender, I knew it was very bad for me to post in here again, but I did it anyway, and more than once.  I'm going to try one more time to stay away, but not with some soapbox tirade.  The fact is these times are different, unique in my lifetime.  There is no desire for left and right (sorry, Ren) to come together and work things out.  The fundamental divide in how we see things is just too broad and deep.
I happen to agree with you.  The problem is people actually listen to people Steve Bannon, Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Rachel Maddow.  The problem is that technology has enabled fringe lunatics to become major and powerful mouthpieces.  The problem is that technological algorithms have created an information bubble by which only one set of views is seen, whether leftist or rightist.

That said, I don't need the news (real or otherwise) to show me what the Republicans are and what they stand for.  The Republicans today want to remove any and all barriers to complete business freedom for them to do whatever they want at the expense of the citizenry and the public good in nearly all cases, or they want to increase the wealth and power of the already extremely wealthy.

I truly believe that the only reason Republicans ever get elected is because of the conservative social agenda.  I'm not saying that there aren't people out there that truly think conservative fiscal, economic, and foreign policy ideas aren't better.  I'm saying that there are a lot of people out there that are otherwise harmed by Republican policies that seem to vote for them anyway because of the Republican social planks, most of which don't actually affect themselves in any direct way.

So I'll let this guy have the last word. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7r2qsEfU-s)  Skip ahead to 13:12 if you think he's a right-wing dittohead for Trump.  Some things are just too obvious for anyone willing to take a step back and get some perspective.
Just to be clear: Jimmy Dore isnt a right-wing dittohead.  He's actually a progressive.  He always goes on about the Democrats because they aren't leftist enough and they can be just as self-serving as the Republicans.  You might already know that, but I'm not sure.

I agree with him that the Democrats would be better served -- from a gaining seats and turning over the presidency standpoint -- by non impeaching Trump, assuming the clusterfuck continues as-is throughout his presidency.

I'm not sure what's better: Democratic control (or at least more influence) over government or the removal of a tyrant that clearly has an interest in implementing an authoritarian government.

And I never meant to imply a shooting civil war with actual firearms.  I think I specifically said "civil war by other means" right before the "bear arms" comment.  If that wasn't clear, I'm making it so right now.  I like to speak in metaphors and similes.  I guess I got myself into some hot water with this one.  Sorry.
I clearly misunderstood the point you were trying to make, so thanks for clearing that up. Sorry about that. I don't react well to the "babies screaming" or "Your way is wrong" type rhetoric. I certainly don't want to shoot you.

But I think you bring up something that I've thought about for awhile: our government no longer serves the people, it's an oligarchy that serves only the richest people and the largest of companies. We might be getting near a need for a change.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Cobra951 on Monday, May 15, 2017, 12:21:56 PM
I figured Dore was far more progressive than some of the other broadcasters I've been linking.  The point is that even thoughtful progressives know or suspect the whole Russia-collusion thing is a political witch hunt.  Flynn does have something to answer for, and while it may pale in comparison to what Bill Clinton and others may have done in the past (with Russia), he's still on the hook.  I'm fine with that.  But if there's nothing concrete beyond it after all this time, lets drop the theatrics already, Mr Schumer.

My previous link to the Hannity video was for the commentary by Newt Gingrich, a man I greatly respect, and who would have been much easier for me to vote for than Donald Trump.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Scott.

OK, good stopping point for me, I think.  I don't believe I said anything just now which would be unfair for me to leave hanging?  I'm trying to exit the topic gracefully.  I'd rather talk about games, tech and generally pleasant stuff.  Let me try that again.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Tuesday, May 16, 2017, 04:32:48 AM
Paul Krugman on the G.O.P.'s balanced budget ideas:

Quote from: Paul Krugman
When they propose sacrifices in the name of fiscal responsibility, do those sacrifices ever involve their own political priorities? And they never do. That is, when you see a politician claim that deficit concerns require that we slash Medicaid, privatize Medicare, and/or raise the retirement age — but somehow never require raising taxes on the wealthy, which in fact they propose to cut — you know that it’s just an act.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Quemaqua on Friday, May 19, 2017, 11:14:53 PM
I fully agree with the whole splitting everyone down the center thing. I feel like the extremes are getting way too much attention. My mom supports Trump, but she doesn't love him, even if she buys into some of the bullshit. And I don't think every single thing he's said is wrong, I just don't think he actually believes in any of it, and believe he's proven that with his actions thus far. Most of us want unity and conversation, not aggression and stonewalling.

And Cobra, no matter how much we may disagree on an issue, understand that I never respect you any less. We all come to things from various perspectives for a host of different reasons, and even if I don't agree with you here, it doesn't mean I don't think you're a decent, kind-hearted, and level-headed person. Any discussion in this arena for me is never personal. Politics will be what it will be, for whatever reasons that it is.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Wednesday, May 31, 2017, 07:53:42 AM
I visited my mother over the Memorial Day weekend. We generally have diametrically opposed political views and I typically find her opinions to be thoughtless, ignorant regurgitation of what she hears on Fox News and the Rush Limbaugh radio show. Consider these past quotes from her in order to sum up what I mean:

"Obama is the Antichrist."

On her health care coverage obtained from the health care marketplace created in the wake of the ACA: "It makes me sick that I'm putting money in Obama's pocket."

In any case, we did touch on politics a bit. She is a Trump voter, but made a statement that indicated she no longer liked him. I was floored. I tried to find out why the change in heart, but I could tell by her expression that she meant "Everything". I then made a statement to the effect of, "I don't know what else you expected given his behavior in the primaries." She didn't have a comment.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Quemaqua on Thursday, June 01, 2017, 05:15:58 PM
Same has kinda happened with my mom. She's a diehard hyperconservative and conspiracy theorist, and still somewhat reticent to say anything out loud at length, but she's indicated she's not pleased. Our conversations about it used to end with her being angry and telling me I was wrong and brainwashed. They definitely don't anymore.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Monday, July 03, 2017, 05:01:31 AM
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/881503147168071680

If pro wresting and moronic tweeting Presidents are part of a Great America, I certainly don't want any part of it.  Someone please take me back to Not As Good America.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: ren on Friday, July 28, 2017, 05:35:04 AM
Now that the repeal of Obamacare is effectively dead, what is next for this Congress and presidency? They've been so defined by opposing Obamacare that I can't think of anything else major on the agenda.

Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Friday, July 28, 2017, 10:42:34 AM
Corporatocracy, I'm sure.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Quemaqua on Wednesday, August 02, 2017, 04:03:33 AM
Man. It was really refreshing not following any of this shit for a month.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Monday, August 14, 2017, 12:14:02 PM
USA Today has some sort of small panel of Trump voters that it speaks to from time to time in order to get a sense for what they are thinking as time goes on. Totally unscientific, but check out a quote from one f the panelists:

Quote
"I don't necessarily agree on what he's saying, but if Twitter is the only way to get the truth out and the truth only comes from him, then that's OK," Steven Spence, 70, of Mesa, Arizona, said.
Source: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/08/14/trumps-core-supporters-begin-worry-future-success/561903001/

I think this person is asserting that only Trump has the truth, anything Trump says is the truth, or some sort of permutation of the two. Scary.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: idolminds on Wednesday, August 16, 2017, 12:02:55 PM
I'm sure you've all heard about Trumps awful "both sides" nonsense speech from yesterday. Just so you're clear on who he is defending, you should watch this:



Straight up nazis.

In something that will take the edge off after watching that, the dude they were mostly following there apparently has a warrant out for his arrest. He posted a video (http://www.rawstory.com/2017/08/im-terrified-neo-nazi-blubbers-like-a-baby-in-video-reporting-hes-wanted-for-arrest-in-charlottesville/#.WZRzCniEZ80.twitter) crying about it because hes scared. Good. Nazis should always be scared in America.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Thursday, August 17, 2017, 03:58:51 AM
But don't you know idol? Nazis were a socialist party, so these guys don't represent the far right. They represent the left!

That is a real counter argument I've heard far right conservatives make regarding the Charlottesville white supremacists.

Here's another one:  Did you know that the Democratic party was the party of slavery and racism?

Thanks for the history lesson, but I'm not sure why people think that what the party was like in the time of Lincoln through the 1960's has anything to do for someone like me, who wasn't born until the late 70's.

The mental gymnastics of some of these people are just astounding.  Do they not have eyes?  Are their brains completely melted? I am constantly amazed at the sheer ignorance and the stuff people believe.

Here's something right wingers believe: Some guy named George Soros pays all the left wing protesters to show and protest. People that aren't quite as nutty believe that he at least funds some of them.  Who the fuck is George Soros?  Why do they believe this?

They also believe the NYT, WaPo, CNN, NBC, MSNBC, USA Today, etc. are all fake news, despite the fact that these organizations staff trained career journalists and editors and actually have journalistic principles they have to follow to maintain their career, yet they'll believe anything some random blogger that runs a site like "Conservatives United" says.

They believe that Black Lives Matter is a hate group along the same lines as the KKK.  Same goes for Antifa.  I've even heard many say the phrase "fascist Antifa" (i.e. the oxymoron "fascist Anti-Fascists").  I mean seriously, what the fuck?!

It's beyond frustrating.

Going back to Charlottesville, I do believe in strong protections for complete freedom of speech, even for speech I don't like one bit.  This is because the moment we give the government the ability to regulate speech, we lose any guarantee that they won't silence our speech in the future.  Strong free speech protection isn't perfect, but it's the best compromise among many imperfect choices.

That said, these guys are straight up extreme right horrible human beings.  Our leaders should be condemning what they say in the strongest, most clear terms possible.  Not being like "OK, they're bad but what about the other guys!"  Thank you to those leaders that did. Trump?  Fuck that guy.

Last I checked, while I don't agree with violent protesting, the "other guys" were against straight up fucking neo-Nazis and the KKK.  They weren't going around saying we need to ethnically cleanse America of white people or Christians or some shit like that.  There is no moral equivalence between the two groups.  They are miles apart.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Quemaqua on Sunday, August 20, 2017, 08:30:15 PM
Agreed. I have had several very frustrating conversations with people that ended up just being impossible because their view of things was so skewed. Like I get it, violence in any capacity is bad, and people should be allowed to say what they have to say, but hate speech is not protected, and CITIZENS protesting against people calling for racial genocide is not an instance of censorship and in no way infringes on freedom of speech, which only references the GOVERNMENT suppressing people's speech. Like come on.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Thursday, September 28, 2017, 04:00:02 AM
So Trump finally did something I like:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/15/politics/lawnmower-kid-cnntv/index.html

Other than that?  Yeah, I pretty much still vehemently disagree with every single thing he says and does.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: idolminds on Wednesday, October 11, 2017, 12:36:20 PM
Quote
With all of the Fake News coming out of NBC and the Networks, at what point is it appropriate to challenge their License? Bad for country!

Literally unconstitutional. And he just...tweets it.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Wednesday, October 11, 2017, 02:30:43 PM
Luckily, NBC doesn't hold such licenses in any case so it's a bit of a non-issue.  But didn't Nixon try something along these lines with WaPo way back when?  What a great President to follow in the footsteps of.

My Facebook friends are a mix of people from far left to far right and everything in between.  I've attempted to have discussions on some of the far right comment threads and there is one constant: anything Trump or his mouthpieces say or do is okay and anything else is fake news.  It doesn't matter that these people have been seen to basically hold the paradoxical position of "How dare you disrespect the flag/anthem of the country I plan to overthrow!" (FTW, that's a reference to people that simultaneously hold the view that the NFL kneelers are disrespecting the U.S.A. and the military in particular and that any form of gun control, such as in reference to large clip sizes or firing rate, is against the 2nd amendment because the 2nd amendment wasn't about hunting or sport, it was about having the ability to possess weapons to participate in an effective revolution).

I've been in enough engagements at this point to be able to imagine the discussion points on this threat against NBC now.  "Well, NBC is nothing but fake news so there should be some way to stop them!"  "NBC nor any other news organization has any right to commit libel or slander and they should be punished via any means available".

I mean we are talking a full on assault on our standard operating attempt at representative democracy here at this point and it's happening on weekly basis.  I mean, I agree with the sentiment of some of the Trump voters that we need to find a way to break the oligarchy being established in this country, but electing a self-serving billionaire to be that vehicle?  That was never going to happen.  But he's worse than a self-serving billionaire.  He's a bull in a china shop.  He's already assaulted our judicial branch on many occasions. Sarah Huckabee Sanders flat out stated that a GOP congressman should resign if he wasn't going to follow the President's agenda.  There is a reason that the founders of this nation created the three branches as checks and balances against one another.  Congress should represent the constituents of their state or district, not the President.

I wish Cobra would chime back in.  Early in this thread he said he might someday regret that he voted for Trump, but doubted it.  I'd love to hear an updated perspective from someone that I have respect for and that can communicate their wildly different viewpoint (from mine) in a friendly and intelligent manner.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: idolminds on Thursday, October 12, 2017, 09:24:29 AM
On Texas after a hurricane hit:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DL8Q0NYXUAAuu9_.jpg)

Today on Puerto Rico:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DL8Q0NaW0AI62_I.jpg)

Remember, Puerto Rico is a US Territory. The people are natural born US citizens. You can travel between PR and the US mainland without a passport.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: ren on Sunday, October 15, 2017, 03:16:18 AM
Luckily, NBC doesn't hold such licenses in any case so it's a bit of a non-issue.  But didn't Nixon try something along these lines with WaPo way back when?  What a great President to follow in the footsteps of.


I've been in enough engagements at this point to be able to imagine the discussion points on this threat against NBC now.  "Well, NBC is nothing but fake news so there should be some way to stop them!"  "NBC nor any other news organization has any right to commit libel or slander and they should be punished via any means available".

I mean we are talking a full on assault on our standard operating attempt at representative democracy here at this point and it's happening on weekly basis.  I mean, I agree with the sentiment of some of the Trump voters that we need to find a way to break the oligarchy being established in this country, but electing a self-serving billionaire to be that vehicle?  That was never going to happen.  But he's worse than a self-serving billionaire.  He's a bull in a china shop.  He's already assaulted our judicial branch on many occasions. Sarah Huckabee Sanders flat out stated that a GOP congressman should resign if he wasn't going to follow the President's agenda.  There is a reason that the founders of this nation created the three branches as checks and balances against one another.  Congress should represent the constituents of their state or district, not the President.

I wish Cobra would chime back in.  Early in this thread he said he might someday regret that he voted for Trump, but doubted it.  I'd love to hear an updated perspective from someone that I have respect for and that can communicate their wildly different viewpoint (from mine) in a friendly and intelligent manner.

Not Cobra, whose opinion I'm also interested in, but I can empathize with Trump's NBC comment.

If it were flipped the other way and there was discussion about banning Breitbart and other fake news/propaganda machines, I would give it serious thought. In Canada our libel/slander laws are broader than yours are our free speech has some limitations; the kind of language used in these publications is borderline illegal here and in many cases likely on the wrong side of the border. A Fox news style TV channel tried to open here and there was mass backlash and they eventually pulled out.

Now if I put myself on the other side of the spectrum and felt NBC was a propaganda rag, by my own arguments I'd want it shut down.

This is using Canadian laws and sensibilities and absolutely goes against the US Constitution but the Constitution is hardly representative of an average emotional person.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Cobra951 on Monday, October 16, 2017, 11:23:23 AM
Luckily, NBC doesn't hold such licenses in any case so it's a bit of a non-issue.  But didn't Nixon try something along these lines with WaPo way back when?  What a great President to follow in the footsteps of.

My Facebook friends are a mix of people from far left to far right and everything in between.  I've attempted to have discussions on some of the far right comment threads and there is one constant: anything Trump or his mouthpieces say or do is okay and anything else is fake news.  It doesn't matter that these people have been seen to basically hold the paradoxical position of "How dare you disrespect the flag/anthem of the country I plan to overthrow!" (FTW, that's a reference to people that simultaneously hold the view that the NFL kneelers are disrespecting the U.S.A. and the military in particular and that any form of gun control, such as in reference to large clip sizes or firing rate, is against the 2nd amendment because the 2nd amendment wasn't about hunting or sport, it was about having the ability to possess weapons to participate in an effective revolution).

I've been in enough engagements at this point to be able to imagine the discussion points on this threat against NBC now.  "Well, NBC is nothing but fake news so there should be some way to stop them!"  "NBC nor any other news organization has any right to commit libel or slander and they should be punished via any means available".

I mean we are talking a full on assault on our standard operating attempt at representative democracy here at this point and it's happening on weekly basis.  I mean, I agree with the sentiment of some of the Trump voters that we need to find a way to break the oligarchy being established in this country, but electing a self-serving billionaire to be that vehicle?  That was never going to happen.  But he's worse than a self-serving billionaire.  He's a bull in a china shop.  He's already assaulted our judicial branch on many occasions. Sarah Huckabee Sanders flat out stated that a GOP congressman should resign if he wasn't going to follow the President's agenda.  There is a reason that the founders of this nation created the three branches as checks and balances against one another.  Congress should represent the constituents of their state or district, not the President.

I wish Cobra would chime back in.  Early in this thread he said he might someday regret that he voted for Trump, but doubted it.  I'd love to hear an updated perspective from someone that I have respect for and that can communicate their wildly different viewpoint (from mine) in a friendly and intelligent manner.

I said before that I'd only comment in this section again if someone asked me to.  OK, then.  To answer your question, no, I do not regret voting for Trump.  If anything, I'm more glad than ever that I have.  His opposition has imploded emotionally in a way that makes his own childish tendencies seem statesmanlike by comparison.  I include Mrs Clinton in that remark.  She still tries and fails to come to grips with the reality of her loss, with the never-ending temper tantrum revealing a vicious vindictive character that would have been the worst of the possible outcomes for the White House.

I will not get into debates about policy or politics.  I think we all know those lead nowhere productive.  I will only say this:  Everyone reporting or commenting on current events is partisan.  Everyone.  And in this emotional, highly charged, polarized atmosphere, that means that it is impossible to glean objective truth from any one source, or any one similarly aligned group of sources.  Prevarication is routine.  To see depth we need binocular vision--a right eye and a left eye.  We need to apply that concept to our fact-gathering efforts, or even take it further, because the political spectrum is more dimensional than left and right.

Most of my family is in Puerto Rico, and they have just experienced the most devastating natural disaster ever, especially taking into account the population and infrastructure growth since San Ciprian in 1932.  The sheer scale of the damage seems to escape everyone.  This isn't like St Thomas or Turks and Caicos, or even New Orleans.  There are 3.5 million of us living on 3425 square miles of US territory.  Being an island, no one can walk out of the disaster zone into the First World like they can in Louisiana.  Help can't drive in either.  If a shipment of a million jugs of water comes in, they'll be thankful, and then ask what they can drink tomorrow.

So far, I have no problem with the US response, given the enormity and unexpectedness of the task.  No one can be prepared for something like this.  It must be taken as it comes.  But I do hope the help and creativity (Elon Musk, you still looking into your plans?) continue for as long as it takes.  Otherwise, the slow disaster will eclipse the fast one from Maria.

My mother fell down the stairs and broke her right femur in March.  Life has been unkind to us here since, as I try to help her literally to get back on her feet.  At her age, and with her stubbornness, it has so far been a thankless, fruitless task.  Put this together with hurricane Maria and the inevitable damage to my personal relationships.  As you might imagine, I have very little patience left for horn locking or other random bullshit.  I feel isolated and alone, and I will try to come back to OW for a bit of respite.  Not here, though.  Politics is a hopeless subject at present, though I have not lost hope in our country altogether.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Tuesday, October 17, 2017, 11:45:10 AM
Thanks for your perspective.  For what it's worth, I totally agree with you on Hillary Clinton with regards to her various statements and book since she lost the election.  You lost, lady!  Get over it!

Yeah, part of it was for reasons outside of her control.  But there were plenty that were in her control that mattered, such as to not just assume that she had all of Obama's votes and actually do some of the legwork on her own.  I wouldn't mind if she came out with a book reflecting on her election defeat a decade from now, but less than a year later?  It just seems like sour grapes, especially when it continues all the finger pointing which doesn't involve any pointing at herself.  I feel like time will change her views on the subject quite a bit.  At least I hope so, for her sake.

I also agree with your perspective on information and needing to look at multiple sources on both sides.  The talking heads like Sean Hannity on Fox News are joke, but the Fox News website is actually a good source of information.  But when when did outfits like the New York Times and the Washington Post become nothing but spewers of complete falsehoods and outfits named things like Red State Watcher and Right Wing News become blindly trusted sources of information for people?  I have acquaintances and relatives in my Facebook news feed sharing things from groups called Anti-Liberal Zone, Deplorables, and RT (yes, RT, as in the Russian propaganda outfit formerly known as Russia Today).  But if you try to counter with something from a reputable news source with actual journalistic standards...?  Oh, didn't you know?  That's fake news.  To be fair, I also see liberals in my feed sharing things from News & Guts and Axios but do have to say that, while having a clear, strong anti-Trump slant, these are nowhere near as bad as the drivel from those right-wing outfits I mentioned.

As far as the wider discussion, I know you don't want to debate.  But I did want to say a piece about your statement about hope for the country as a whole: I wish I shared your optimism.  I truly do.

I've always held strong beliefs that politicians use social and moral issues as a wool over our eyes and get our focus fixed to give them space to do other things while people aren't paying attention.  Things like changes to laws, policies, and regulations that favor the oligarchy over the masses or massive, extremely profitable companies over citizens.  Republicans are waving the nationalist flag now and getting a lot of support from the patriot types and stirring up arguments between racists and anti-racists and ultranationalists and more pragmatic types, but at the same time they are paving the way for the ultra-wealthy to become even more so.  I wish people would focus on the things that are actually important.

Some NFL player that people don't know in a city they've probably never been to is kneeling during the national anthem somehow gets people all bent out of shape, but rumblings about the government getting rid of the CFPB, reversing regulations put in place that reign in Wall Street in order to help prevent another Great Recession, large tax cuts for the very wealthy with a pittance handed out to everyone else (or even a tax increase in some cases)...?  Supply-side economics has already been tried and its trickle-down effects were seen to be minimal.  Trump and the Republicans want to get rid of the estate tax, which is a clear sign that rich people want to hoard wealth, not allow it to trickle down.

Expansion of policies favoring private prisons, creating a financial incentive to put people in jail.  Policies harming education, resulting in a more poorly educated populace and all of the problems that come along with that.  Policies and laws allowing companies to collect and sell personal information without consent.  Policies turning our police into a military occupying force and eliminating any rights at or near the border (which includes international airports).  Increases in government surveillance.  Elimination of the right to be able to form a class in a lawsuit in order to hold companies accountable for gross negligence or malfeasance.

Where's the outrage over these things?  Instead we see blind *support*, because people aren't even looking and support their chosen leader(s) no matter what.

While the wool pulling isn't a totally new phenomenon, I feel like we are seeing more polarization and much more fierce blind support (or blind disapproval).  Extreme polarization has already done damage in Congress in terms of getting sensible bipartisan legislation passed that contains compromises for both sides, and the polarization is only going to get worse.  See the election of extreme right Roy Moore over Luther Strange and rumblings that a "Tea Party of the left" sort of movement is going to result in much more leftist candidates making it out of Democrat primaries.  This polarization has already had a huge impact on bipartisanship and it's only going to get worse as more Congressional seats change hands.

The "solution" to Congressional gridlock at partisanship - for both parties - has been to use all kinds of procedural tricks in order to try get things passed.  Such as using the reconciliation process for laws that this process was never designed for in order to avoid a Senate fillibuster.  Now there is talk about the Senate removing the fillibuster, which is basically the last thing standing in our government that forces some degree of bipartisan compromise.  Don't we want bipartisanship?  When did that become bad?  Sure, bipartisanship means that we might lose some things we want when our party is in power, but it also means that we don't get things we absolutely hate when our party isn't.

I don't agree with you at all about Donald Trump, as I'm sure is clear.  I think the guy is a total buffoon, a terrible leader, and extremely damaging to the fabric of this country.  But that's beside the point.  He's just a symptom of a bigger problem in this country.  This article (https://www.vox.com/2017/10/13/16431502/america-democracy-decline-liberalism) is a bit alarmist, but it makes some really good points.  I know it's Vox, but I hope you take the time to read it in any case.  After all, you said yourself that you need both left and right vision.

Sorry to hear that you're having a rough patch.  I hope everything improves for you and your family.  And again, thanks for your perspective.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: ren on Saturday, November 18, 2017, 10:57:51 PM
It looks like the TPP is back and moving forward without US involvement. I was originally not a fan of the TPP and a little relieved when Trump killed it but the new version without the US is substantially improved. Much of the copyright, IP, pharmaceutical and liability rules that the U.S. was pushing have been suspended.

It's very interesting to watch the rest of the world go ahead without U.S. leadership. I was originally quite nervous about it but now I'm moving into cautious optimism. Who knows what'll happen when the next President tries to assume the standard US world leader role and sees the rest of the world has moved on.

Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Quemaqua on Monday, November 20, 2017, 12:49:38 PM
Pretty interesting situation. US doesn't have the clout it once did, and Asia in particular may begin to form a different dynamic. TPP was indeed a shitshow at the start, so I was also glad it got killed. We'll see what comes of it all now.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Pugnate on Tuesday, May 08, 2018, 11:15:21 AM
I can't believe an American president-elect tweeted this:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/799974635274194947

Extraordinary.

I can't help but laugh looking back at this. Had I only known then that this would be a relatively tame tweet.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Tuesday, July 17, 2018, 08:32:29 AM
Our intelligence services: "Russia was and still is active in influencing and subverting our democratic processes."

Vladamir Putin, former Soviet and Russian intelligence agent: "We absolutely aren't doing that."

Donald Trump: "I believe Putin. He had a very strong response. Our intelligence agencies are the deep state! Why haven't they found Hillary Clinton's missing emails?! Bad!"

So at what point does our current President become an officially recognized agent of a foreign government?

Edit: Corrected the word  "foreign" to "former".
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: gpw11 on Tuesday, July 17, 2018, 09:03:28 PM
Tide would have to turn during the midterms I imagine.  Although I do highly suspect that there is a hell of a lot more opposition to Trump behind closed doors than we see.  I mean, that's how it always is.  What's surprising here is that no one is visibly defecting when the situation is so unpalatable. If the  "blue tide" doesn't come about, I have a feeling the GOP will shift all at once but I don't think the damage done will ever be undone. 

Honestly, I think the GOP's largest concern is now a schism in the party that's below the surface. I'd imagine moderate and mainline conservatives can't stand Trump or those actively propping him up and probably realize there's no future in it.  At the same time, they know fracturing the party now will take forever to recover from and many of their careers will stagnate as their base is split.  And I guess they're just going along for the ride, using it as an opportunity to get their policy agendas through the doors and are getting ready to all jump ship at once and hope they don't go down with the ship...if it goes down.

But really, if anything that just makes it worse. 
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: scottws on Friday, August 30, 2019, 10:14:32 AM
Relevant to my last comment: US spies say Trump's G7 performance suggests he's either a 'Russian asset' or a 'useful idiot' for Putin (https://www.businessinsider.com/spies-react-trump-g7-summit-russian-asset-2019-8)

Yeah, it's Business Insider but that doesn't make it untrue.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: K-man on Sunday, December 13, 2020, 07:23:37 AM
Pretty safe to say it's more in the realm of "useful idiot?"
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Pugnate on Monday, November 28, 2022, 05:42:57 PM
Funny going through this thread. I feel like I grew up 20 years in those 4 years of Trump.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: Quemaqua on Friday, December 16, 2022, 11:53:35 AM
Pretty much watched my family disintegrate thanks to the Trump years. But hey, it made it a lot easier to simply come out as a liberal atheist and stop giving a fuck what people think.
Title: Re: Trump is now president
Post by: ren on Friday, December 23, 2022, 10:01:48 AM
Even the concept of coming out for a political orientation is insane. Religion as well but to a lesser extent. My friends and family know my values but I don't think anybody has ever asked me who I'm voting for and I've never made it known. And I couldn't say anyways since the party varies based on the election and the level of government since a political party is not an identity.