Author Topic: McCain comes out creationist (update: D'oh, not really.)  (Read 18340 times)

Offline angrykeebler

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Re: McCain comes out creationist
« Reply #40 on: Wednesday, February 14, 2007, 01:28:05 PM »
man, i cut vatos like you
Suck it, Pugnate.

Offline WindAndConfusion

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Re: McCain comes out creationist
« Reply #41 on: Wednesday, February 14, 2007, 01:30:36 PM »
OK, fuck. I have to eat some crow here.

The Disco Institute is a co-sponsor at the event. McCain will be there. It seems the Disco Institute is hyping this as "McCain supports ID!" My apologies for being dumb enough to take the Disco Institute at their word, I should have known them better.

Guess we'll know for sure when McCain gives his speech.

Offline Ghandi

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Re: McCain comes out creationist (update: D'oh, not really.)
« Reply #42 on: Wednesday, February 14, 2007, 04:30:48 PM »
Sorry, I couldn't let this absurd nonsense slip by without a response:

C'mon! How can a grown man actually believe in creationism?

Faith? Through is belief in the Bible? Millions of other reasons that we don't know?

I mean, believing it is one thing, but to actually believe it?

no comment

There is absolutely no scientific proof that creationism happen or could happen, actually theres proof against it. Its just wrong, its not right.

Read Cobra's post about separating theology and science. Refuting God (or the Bible) with science is a flawed argument.

They people still think the Earth is flat, should that be taught?

Barring the fact that this is a lie, it has nothing to do with the argument at hand. It isn't even analogous.

Some people think that aliens are going to come down and rescue and take us to another planet, what subject should cover that?

no comment

  Christians think that their religion is more credible than most, thats the only reason they feel that their beliefs should be taught in school.

This is by far the most ignorant statement I've ever read on these boards.

Offline WindAndConfusion

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Re: McCain comes out creationist (update: D'oh, not really.)
« Reply #43 on: Wednesday, February 14, 2007, 05:38:29 PM »
Quote
They people still think the Earth is flat, should that be taught?
Barring the fact that this is a lie, it has nothing to do with the argument at hand. It isn't even analogous.
I'm not sure about flat-earthers, but there are definitely still some geocentrists around. There used to be another guy ("the Biblical Astronomer") who seemed to be one of the people who was hired by the Kansas School Board to re-write certain educational standards after they decided to remove evolution from the curriculum.
Quote
Quote
Christians think that their religion is more credible than most, thats the only reason they feel that their beliefs should be taught in school.
This is by far the most ignorant statement I've ever read on these boards.
Eh? Everyone thinks their religion/belief system/ideology is more credible than most, and most people want their beliefs taught in school. (The issue is that not everyone has beliefs supported by science, and so not everyone belongs in a science classroom.)

Offline nickclone

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Re: McCain comes out creationist (update: D'oh, not really.)
« Reply #44 on: Wednesday, February 14, 2007, 06:21:53 PM »
Sorry, I couldn't let this absurd nonsense slip by without a response:

Faith? Through is belief in the Bible? Millions of other reasons that we don't know?

no comment

Read Cobra's post about separating theology and science. Refuting God (or the Bible) with science is a flawed argument.

Barring the fact that this is a lie, it has nothing to do with the argument at hand. It isn't even analogous.

no comment

This is by far the most ignorant statement I've ever read on these boards.

For being "by far the most ignorant statement you've ever read on these boards", you sure don't have much of a rebuttal. Why don't you quit worrying about offending others and just prove your point if you have one.

Oh and don't try to shove me off to someone else's opinion, tell me what you think.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: McCain comes out creationist (update: D'oh, not really.)
« Reply #45 on: Wednesday, February 14, 2007, 08:43:15 PM »
Again, I shall repeat that I am not making any pro-creationism comments here.  My comments are anti-evolution.  I'm not saying that God created the Earth, nor am I even saying the Earth is young.  I'm saying that the basic concepts of gradualism and punctuated equilibrium are without sufficient evidence to be believed by anyone who actually bothers to look at the so-called "mountains of evidence" to see how many giant, gaping holes there are in it.  I'm saying that Neo-Darwinism has mountains of *assumption* that can be logically followed by drawing lines from point to point, but that there isn't sufficient evidence to prove that the lines should have ever been drawn that way in the first place.  I couldn't give less of a shit what any of you believe, but I find it absolutely laughable that you can go around bashing everyone in the universe who doesn't believe the way you do when most of what you believe is merely a logical chain of landmarks with no linking paths.  People are still debating the completeness of the fossil record.  There are evolutionists now making claims that assuming incompleteness and imagining relationships that can't be proven should make way for using stratigraphic data to test phylogenetic relationships between species.  What heresy!  Or we can believe that multiple beneficial mutations were consistently present in large populations yet mystically managed genetic isolation from the majorities.  Or we can ignore that population drops are accompanied by the expression of detrimental genes and valleys in genetic variability.  How can you base every argument on an incomplete fossil record with 250,000 year gaps when the incompleteness of the fossil record is still being debated by non-religious scientists and molecular biology keeps finding new evidence that contradicts popular implementation?

Anyway, I'm done with this.  I should have just stayed done because I don't really feel like this is doing anything for me.  Just please stop insulting everyone who believes differently than you do.  It's annoying and unnecessary.  Want to believe what you do?  Nobody's stopping you.  But that doesn't mean you have to insult others who feel your "evidence" is still far from concrete and based more on your desire to eliminate opposing ideologies than to actually, you know, promote science.  And, for at least the third time, I'm not defending creationism, so please stop claiming that I am.  I have not once stated in this thread what I actually believe.  I have stated what I don't believe.  My own father was an evolutionist, an amateur paleontologist, and the published biographer of a family of paleontologists, so don't think I say anything I say out of some muddled attempt to grasp onto a concept for comfort.  The first ten years of my life he devoted to working on that book.  We went to digs.  I touched.  I learned.  I loved and respected my father more than any other person I have ever known and I'd have given anything to agree with him in adulthood.  I still would.  And if someday something is actually proven to a degree I find anything less than ridiculous, maybe I will.  Belief in God, after all, does not equal a disbelief in evolutionary theory or some kind of need to refute science.  My father proved *that* to me beyond any doubt.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline WindAndConfusion

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Re: McCain comes out creationist (update: D'oh, not really.)
« Reply #46 on: Wednesday, February 14, 2007, 09:27:25 PM »
Each new fossil discovery just creates two new gaps. So naturally, the fossil record will never be complete (unless we had the fossilized remains of every single ancestor of every single living thing, but that's obviously not gonna happen).

Anyway, I think this is a pretty good example of a transition:

Besides that:
  • There are few or no major morphological gaps in the fossil record.
  • Comparative genetics clearly establishes a nested hierarchy of the relatedness of all organisms.
I'll not bother mentioning vitamin C, primate three-color vision, ERVs, horizontal gene transfer, nylon-eating bacteria, or any of my other favorite examples.

Also, "transitional fossil" is Creationist Claim CC200 in the Talk.Origins index.

Offline gpw11

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Re: McCain comes out creationist (update: D'oh, not really.)
« Reply #47 on: Wednesday, February 14, 2007, 09:55:44 PM »
Now you're going to haveto explain vitamin C and nylon eating bacteria.  I have a thirst for knowledge.

Offline WindAndConfusion

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Re: McCain comes out creationist (update: D'oh, not really.)
« Reply #48 on: Wednesday, February 14, 2007, 10:19:55 PM »
Most mammals synthesize their own vitamin C. Primates (including humans) don't, hence they are susceptible to scurvy. There was a point mutation in our gene for L-gulano-γ-lactone oxidase, which is the last step in vitamin C production - this didn't matter to our ancestor species, because they ate a high-fruit diet rich in vitamin C. Other primates are stuck with this same affliction - because of an identical mutation in a nearly identical gene. (references here - including genomic analyses)

Nylon is a synthetic material that contains certain bonds - beta-amides - that do not occur in nature. Thus there are no enzymes that can act on nylon - except for a few species of bacteria that have figured out the trick. There are now bacteria that (using modified forms of existing genes) can eat nylon like sugar. (t.o again)

Offline gpw11

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Re: McCain comes out creationist (update: D'oh, not really.)
« Reply #49 on: Wednesday, February 14, 2007, 10:30:24 PM »
Interesting, thanks.

Offline Ghandi

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Re: McCain comes out creationist (update: D'oh, not really.)
« Reply #50 on: Thursday, February 15, 2007, 04:11:55 PM »
For being "by far the most ignorant statement you've ever read on these boards", you sure don't have much of a rebuttal. Why don't you quit worrying about offending others and just prove your point if you have one.

Oh and don't try to shove me off to someone else's opinion, tell me what you think.

Unfortunately, a rebuttal first requires an argument. The fact that you expect intelligent discourse after you flame an entire religion is laughable. I'm done with this. I shouldn't even have dignified your bullshit with a response to begin with.

Offline nickclone

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Re: McCain comes out creationist (update: D'oh, not really.)
« Reply #51 on: Friday, February 16, 2007, 06:54:26 PM »
Unfortunately, a rebuttal first requires an argument. The fact that you expect intelligent discourse after you flame an entire religion is laughable. I'm done with this. I shouldn't even have dignified your bullshit with a response to begin with.

Face it, religion is a business. They're selling a product that they want you to buy into, if you can't see that...then I guess that explains why you're religious.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: McCain comes out creationist (update: D'oh, not really.)
« Reply #52 on: Friday, February 16, 2007, 07:37:01 PM »
I get the impression you don't know anything about Ghandi at all, so maybe you should stop making assumptions about people and start learning how to make arguments that don't involve insulting people.  Ghandi and I disgaree on plenty of subjects, but I think he's a fine individual and somebody I'm glad to know, and you could accomplish a lot more by talking to him than attempting to tear him down, especially since that's a fight you could never hope to win.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline Cobra951

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Re: McCain comes out creationist
« Reply #53 on: Friday, February 16, 2007, 07:54:37 PM »
OK, fuck. I have to eat some crow here.

The Disco Institute is a co-sponsor at the event. McCain will be there. It seems the Disco Institute is hyping this as "McCain supports ID!" My apologies for being dumb enough to take the Disco Institute at their word, I should have known them better.

Guess we'll know for sure when McCain gives his speech.

Heh, I missed this.  See, independent verification is really needed on unlikely stories like this one.

There's been a lot of argument back and forth since I posted last, but nothing has changed in terms of calling black "black" and white "white".  We can't hope to communicate with each other if we can't even tell what's science and what isn't.  Note that I'm not pushing the validity of any scientific theory in the current discussion.  I'm only saying that identifying what does and does not qualify in the category is as clear and unambiguous as black and white.

Offline idolminds

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Re: McCain comes out creationist (update: D'oh, not really.)
« Reply #54 on: Saturday, February 17, 2007, 12:01:42 AM »
I saw this posted on another forum and it sort of ties in with this thread. Don't be offended...just have a chuckle.


Offline Ghandi

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Re: McCain comes out creationist (update: D'oh, not really.)
« Reply #55 on: Saturday, February 17, 2007, 12:45:28 AM »
Funny stuff Idol :)

And thank you for the kind words Que. Good discussion about serious topics is a good way to expand your world view. The fact that we (and many people on here) don't agree on things is a good thing- we can gain a broader picture of the topics we are discussing.

I wasn't defending creationism here, I don't particularly agree with it (in the conventional sense). I do believe, though, that inflammatory remarks (particularly towards vast groups of people) get us nowhere- in fact, they often hinder progress and discussion.

And nickclone, if you actually thought I was going to defend my religion to you, think again.

Offline WindAndConfusion

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Re: McCain comes out creationist
« Reply #56 on: Saturday, February 17, 2007, 02:23:21 PM »
Heh, I missed this.  See, independent verification is really needed on unlikely stories like this one.
Well, it didn't seem so unlikely at the time. A Republican presidential hopeful, during the primaries, allies himself with a cause that has both money and much support from the conservative base. And there were people like this jackass getting involved, which always makes this stuff into a more confusing mess:
Quote
My own forensic involvement [in the evolution controversy] took place nine years ago as host of Firing Line. The two-hour, nationally televised debate on the topic “Resolved: that the evolutionists should acknowledge creation” featured seven professors.
That's right, a two-hour televised debate. And the Creationists won. Kent Hovind must've been there.

Point is, I fucking hate politics. I can think of no topic of discussion that invites more shameless liars and utter misinformation. Debates often turn into shouting matches between two parties spewing utterly contradicting facts; more often than not both sides are wrong and no one actually looks up the facts in question, no matter how trivial they are. Worst of all, almost everyone will tell you what to think but just about no one will bother telling you why you should think that. People spend more time defending their choices than they bother to spend making them.

Here's another thing you'll never see a politician do: Cobra, thanks for correcting me. My research was lazy and political issues are always surrounded by misinformation.