Topic: The Super-Massive Metroid Thread

[Quemaqua]

Haha, seriously, everyone seems to utterly hate the boost guy.  I didn't find it all that vexing, though I did have to try that one twice, along with the spider ball guy.  But I fucking loved the spider guy fight!  This game has a number of great, unique boss battles, and that one is right up there.  It made me smile.

[Cobra951]

Oh, no.  You guys are scaring the hell out of me.  When you say boss fights are a lot of fun, it usually means I'll be frustrated for hours.   

I got to Dark Aether and beat the Space Jump guy without too much trouble.  The big worm was harder, really.  Now I'm just going around trying to see how much I can open up with the new abilities.  One thing that pisses me off about the game is that it often locks doors behind you, and doesn't let you in to where you just were.  I hate that.  It's not as bad as Fusion, but still.

[Quemaqua]

The boss battles have the potential to be frustrating, but they're also very different from your average game boss fight (which may have something to do with why people don't take to them too well).  The game is a pretty difficult one on the whole, so definitely go in expecting that... but it's also rewarding, as it's got a great story, a different visual style, and a lot of unique moments.  The only thing that I felt was aggravating in that sort of artificial and cheap way is a key hunt at the end of the game which just plain shouldn't have been there.  That, and the very last boss could have used SOME clue as to how to defeat it (it's on a timer... if you spend more than 20 seconds without figuring out the trick, just pause and go read a FAQ, trust me).

[Cobra951]

Oh, I will.  I've been spoiled by emulators, with their save states.  I can't stand having to repeat a lot of trudging to a boss battle only to have my ass handed to me in half a minute.  I don't want to start this debate again, but would it have killed them to have an easy mode?  Score me lower, give me a crappy ending, don't unlock any art galleries--but let me play through the game I bought with my money without having to be an 18-year-old prodigy.  Shit fire.
/rant

I quit last night when I got way stuck.  It seems like there's nowhere I can go.  Lots of places to try, all seeming to need something I don't have yet.

Edit:  I made good progress last night.  The only time I died was the Amorbis battle (3 worms).  I figured out what I had to do.  The only thing that took me until the 2nd attempt to figure out was the best weapon to use.  After that, it got much easier.  In fact, I have yet to feel that the game is really unfair.  So far, pure brilliance.  There is so much love for the franchise in the game.  Just being in here is a joy.  Big props to Retro, as usual.

The last thing I got was the super missile.  I’m in the bog now, trying to get my bearings.  I can see by what I can’t do what I’ll probably be getting next.

Edit 2:  Oh, what a huge shame.  So very sad.  I had no idea. 

[Cobra951]

OK, here's the Boost Guardian, and there goes my opinion of the game.  I've tried 5 times now, and I can barely stay alive long enough to get some idea about strategies.  It is unforgivably unfair.  The only hope of salvaging my playthrough now I think is to find more energy tanks.  Does anyone know how many are possible to get before this impossible battle?  I have 5 now.

[idolminds]

You know whats a great product? Action Replay.

[Quemaqua]

I honestly don't know why people have so much trouble with that boss.  I don't get it at all.  I mean, I get that it isn't necessarily a cakewalk, but I really didn't have any trouble with it.

Maybe a video like this would help?  I also made a post about it in a thread at Bit-Blot.com.

Anyway, the boost boss really isn't that difficult once you get the hang of it, unless you're playing in hard mode of course.  Basically you just need to nail him as much as possible when he's in his regular Ing form, then when he goes into boost form, roll up into a ball and avoid him as best you can.  Some have told me they had better luck staying on their feet, so that may work for you... but in either case just avoid him as best you can.  If you get him to boost into the pillars, those'll drop the full 100 energy charges which come in real handy (if you're smart, you'll use all 4 throughout the fight, plus whatever you get from killing the random enemy spawns).  Then when he goes back to his flat shadowy/liquidy/whatever form, drop bombs on him until he gets pissed and takes regular Ing form again.  Then get up, blast at him again, and repeat until he's dead.  Kill the other random spawns as necessary, either with bombs or regular shots.  There's enough "downtime" to kill those when you're just busy avoiding the boss and can't damage him, so don't waste too much time on them while he's is in a form you can damage.

I have no idea if that's helpful or not because I didn't even reread it before posting it here, heh.

[Cobra951]

7th time.  Lucky 7?  I couldn't find any other powerups.  I ran around for an hour or so with no luck.  So I came back and tried again.  First time (6th) he nailed me every time as a rolling ball.  I don't think he missed once.  I barely knocked a third off his health before dying.  the next time I got lucky.  He knocked down all the pillars one by one, which give out a lot of health at times I could use it.  Then he kept doing other things which also produced one of those full-tank health globes.  I didn't get hit nearly as much, and I was able to beat him.

There is no way I can get out of his way or even have enough time to charge up a light-beam shot if he decides to rush me (which he often did).  It's just an unfair contest.  Yeah, eventually the fates smiled my way, but I can't pretend I beat this guy on skill.  It's a poorly designed fight and I'm glad it's over.

Action Replay for the GC?  Is that still around, and would it work on the Wii?

[Quemaqua]

So weird.  I've done the fight at least 3 times and had no trouble at all with it on any attempt.  I really wish I knew why some people hate it so much (especially since apparently I was too dense to understand the mechanic needed at the very very end of the game without a FAQ, whereas most other people were like "Oh, I got that").  Still, you can be glad to know that you're past it, and that's the one everyone seems to hate the most.  There are some other tough fights, but nothing that people seem to universally hate so much as that one.

[K-man]

There's definitely skill involved in beating him, but he's still annoying and a significant hurdle in the game.  The spider ball guardian is bad, but in a different way.  It's fun but annoying, if that makes sense.

Don't let the boost ball guardian sour your experience with the game though.  There won't be another boss that difficult.

[Quemaqua]

Yeah, I know what you mean with the spider guy.  It was a neat fight, but it could be aggravating at points.

[Cobra951]

I honestly don't know why people have so much trouble with that boss.  I don't get it at all.  I mean, I get that it isn't necessarily a cakewalk, but I really didn't have any trouble with it.

Maybe a video like this would help?  I also made a post about it in a thread at Bit-Blot.com.

I have no idea if that's helpful or not because I didn't even reread it before posting it here, heh.

Watched the video.  I did better than that guy when I did it right.  For one thing, he isn't using the light beam, which shreds the Ing nicely.  For another, he got lucky like I did.  The pillars were destroyed at good intervals.  They can be gone all at once (so the 100+ orbs are wasted) or stay standing for the whole fight.

Read the thread on the Aquaria forums.  I hadn't been there for a while.  I remember Glamador.  When I'm at my most negative about Echoes, I sympathize with some of what he says.  I don't agree it's a bad game or a cheap sequel.  That's crap.  But I initially felt the same way about beam ammo and the constant health drain in Dark Aether.  Then I got the Dark Suit and discovered (like you) how easy it is to replenish the ammo, and those complaints fell by the wayside.  If anything, Dark Aether makes it easier to stay at full health, since it creeps back up in safe zones.  (That does bring up gpw's valid complaint about slow recharges by standing still: you're going to sit there and wait if you think the boost will be needed around the next corner, which is a lot of dead time.)

Alpha Blogg was indeed a low point for me as well.  Not as hard or unfair at all, but it took me by surprise after a good while without saving, and of course it killed me.  By the third time I had pretty much figured him out, but the damage was done.  Nothing infuriates me more than having to repeat a substantive game sequence just because I can't save before a deadly challenge.  I figured out exactly how close I could get to him before the fight and still save, after that.  Did it, fought him a couple more times, and on I went. 

Then I get to the Grapple Guardian.  This guy was by no means hard, but just a pain in the ass.  The game's mechanics are not well suited to having to run behind somebody and turn around quickly.  He was never stunned or stuck to the generators long enough to make that become easy.  As a result, I spent a lot of time, and I mean a lot, just circling the safe zones trying to get the drop on him.  It didn't help one bit that you can't lock on to the weak spot while he has his shell.  Again, the game mechanics do not work well for this kind of fight if you can't lock on to where it matters.  The new Wii controls, if they actually do happen, should improve this fight considerably, from a fun-factor perspective.

I stayed up till the wee hours last night (this morning) unable to break myself away from the game.  So it certainly has me hooked.  The last thing I did was go get an energy tank I had seen much earlier on the other side of a grapple point.  Let's see what tonight brings.

[Quemaqua]

Yeah, they Alpha Blogg killed me too, that really pissed me off.  I was pretty annoyed by that death.  I beat him the 2nd time through, though.  I don't recall having any trouble with the grapple guy.  I think I pretty much mauled him outright, to the point where I don't really even remember the fight very well.

But yeah, as much as Glamador and I disagree on Echoes, I think he's actually a pretty cool guy.  Most of the folks over there are nice, reasonable people.  They like Steam too much (I got pretty heartily reamed for some of my anti-Steametic comments, including from Alec), but otherwise I usually have good discussions with whoever's around.

[K-man]

I wholeheartedly agree that the energy drain on dark aether definitely contributed negatively to the game as a whole.  I felt compelled to sit and let my energy recharge to full, essentially wasting hours of game time that way.  I found it annoying to be punished for something I had no control over.  It negatively impacted my experience, and at times the game felt like a chore, but I still enjoyed it.

I think overall Prime is superior.  I can't make a judgment on 3 yet

[Quemaqua]

3 isn't as good as the others, but it has strengths they don't.  And is completely awesome.

[Cobra951]

I have to disagree.  I think I'm done with Echoes as of right now.  It is an exhausting, draining experience.  I can't go from one room to another now without getting clobbered by huge bastards.  Yeah, I can handle them.  I just don't want to.  Next time I come back, there they are again.  What do I get from them?  Nothing.  Just aggravation.  Then I get to this big cocoon, fight a huge larva.  He's easy, but again, exhausting.  My reward for beating him?  A huge fucking wasp that knocks me into the purple shit every 10 seconds.  I'm trying to grapple around platforms to get behind so I can target red spots.  (Doesn't this shit bother anyone else?  It's a huge fucking bug.  Why do i have to hit these thin wings only from one side?)  I survived through 2 form changes, and of course, he only got more aggressive, spraying me with corrosive spew and knocking me into the purple goo.  Died, and that's fucking enough.  Some day, if I find a cheating device that lets me turn off damage or something, I may try again for the only part of the game I really want to play, which is the exploration and discovery.  The combat is way too infuriating, and I don't need this.

Edit:  I was just venting.  You probably know that.  If not here, where?  Sorry if I got anyone annoyed.

[K-man]

Just put it down and come back to it later.  It took me years to finally come back to it.  Got stuck at boost ball guardian and then put it away for 3-4 years. 

It is an exhausting game, for sure.

[Quemaqua]

Yeah, don't sweat it.  I don't think anyone would argue with you.  It's not a lightweight experience in the least, and I absolutely understand when people get frustrated with something because they're looking for fun and it just ends up being too much work.  Me, I generally like old-school, hardcore experiences (at least sometimes), so I can appreciate these things, but I know I'm certainly not everybody.  I would advise the same as K-Man.  When I really get that fed up with something, I just walk away and if I get the urge to come back later, maybe I will.  If not, there's always other stuff to play.

[Cobra951]

The GC Action Replay is now compatible with the Wii, and the infinite health code is all I want.  I just don't know if I want to spend $30 on the thing.  Money is very tight for me at the moment.

I know you're right about walking away and coming back later.  I've done that before.  But it never feels right to walk away at the time.  Seething anger, or leave it unfinished (which brings out more anger because of the long, wasted exercise).  Fuck them for not giving me a way around this.  I have to pay someone else extra for that.

Edit:  Well, I beat this guy today without too much trouble.  Now I really feel like a whiny bitch.  Got lost for a couple of hours, and I just found what I have to do next.  I'm in a whole new are, some kind of fortress.  I dread what comes next.

[Quemaqua]

You're nearing the final stretch.  I actually thought that area was really neat... I had a ton of fun exploring the place.  It's pretty unique, and I don't think any of it was too terribly hard.

[K-man]

I ended up purchasing a strategy guide for the game.  I'd stop playing and wouldn't know what the hell to do when I came back.  The hint system would sometimes take forever to chime in.

[Cobra951]

Yes, this is one game where I don't feel ashamed to have the hint system turned on.  There's no way in hell I would have known where to go next a couple of times now.  Others I figured out well in advance, because of the gate colors, the portals and the map layout across dimensions.  (I knew exactly where to go after I got the spider ball.)  But there are a lot of obstacles that don't show on the maps, and if I forget, I end up doing a lot of backtracking for nothing.

I now have the spider ball and the power bomb.  Yes, the sanctuary fortress is a very neat place.  That's exactly the kind of thing I love in the Prime games.  I like the enemies too, though they can be hard.  They are just so cool.

The spider-ball guardian was an interesting exercise.  I did go in with a walkthrough on the other screen.  I've only been referring to it for bosses, being careful not to scroll past the end of the fight strategy.  I died once, then got him the 2nd time.  The only really hard part is the final hit.  Cool ideas all around.  The power-bomb guy was just annoying, not hard at all.  Whenever I felt like I wanted more health, I rolled around the bottom, boosting from safe zone to safe zone when I saw the glow of an approaching power bomb.  Again, the final hit was the bitch.  It must have taken me like 10 tries.  He's good at leading you as a target, and he's good at protecting the bomb slot.  If I ever do this again, I'm going after the hardest slot first rather than last.  I'll save the easiest to reach for last.  He gets more aggressive toward the end.

So now a lot of new stuff is open to me, and I'm just going to explore.  I can see an energy tank up on the wall at the end of a powered ball track that comes from somewhere I can't see.  I gotta have it.

[Quemaqua]

I'm glad you managed to get past that stuff, because you shouldn't have anything make you want to bang your head against the wall from here on out (though there are a few powerups that are a little tricky).  The end-game key hunt is the worst part, and it isn't hard, just kind of annoying.  Feel no shame in using a walkthrough to expedite its completion, as you may just find the whole thing dragging on too long otherwise, and there isn't really anything all that cool or new during that process that you should worry about spoiling.

[Cobra951]

I've managed to collect (what I assume are) 3 of those keys already.  I guess this would be a spoiler, though we've been bandying plenty of those about.

[spoiler]After I got the dark visor, I started using it everywhere, and I saw this creature outline underwater.  I couldn't interact with it at all, but later in Dark Aether in some other area, I saw the same shape, only filled out.  I went hopping across the purple stuff to it and shot it.  That brought it out of stealth or phased mode (or whatever) and I killed it with one light-beam shot.  It left a key to the sky temple.  Later I hopped across some normally invisible platforms for another, and got the third a while after that.[/spoiler]

I fought and beat Dark Samus 2 with little trouble. Didn't even read strategies on that fight.  Then the game threw me a nasty curve with a bot inside a big cylinder filled with spider-ball tracks.  I was not ready for a boss fight.  I wasn't even all that healthy when I got locked in there with him.  I didn't know what to do, so that was that.  2nd attempt went much better, and got him out of the way.

I was hopping around some complex and even spinning ball tracks in a big outside area when the sandman found me.  Enough for one day.

[Cobra951]

Ooh, cool new suit of armor.  It looks so different from anything else I've seen Samus wear (including the skimpy prurient outfits).

OK, I'm rounding third and heading for home.  I took on this enormous 4-legged robot a couple of nights ago.  I almost had it beat, but then I couldn't quite make the last couple of moves needed to bring him down.  Dark Aether's constant damage took me out more than he did, after more than a few failed attempts.  So I went on to do lots of exploration and found 4 (four!) energy tanks, bringing the total to 13.  Found other goodies too, mostly missile expansions, a few power-bomb expansions and a couple of Sky Temple keys.  Last night, I went straight to Round 2 with the big guy.  This time, it was almost easy.  I managed to keep at full health until the tricky part, and I got through that with only a couple of missteps.  I got the last missing weapon from him, and returning the temple's energy got me the suit I mentioned.

I went on to find the high-power attack for that last beam as well as the last energy tank.  Then I went after a few more Sky Temple keys I had already figured out, but couldn't get to because of Dark Aether hazards I couldn't get past.  The new suit fixed that.  I returned the keys in my possession to the access point, and found out which I was missing (only 3).  You know, Que, I sort of like this quest.  It's the kind of thing I like to do in Metroid games, much much more than fighting hard bosses.  (I should note that I have only used a walkthrough on bosses, and not even all of them.  I've been very careful not to spoil anything else.)  It wraps right into the familiar task of scanning everything. 

[spoiler]If you get all your Luminoth keybearer and temple-access room scans, the clues will nearly pinpoint where you have to go.  There are 2 clues per key, one from the room's key slot and one from the log of the dead keybearer.  The keys are always in the dark world, while the bodies of the keybearers are in the corresponding part of the light world.  I went on to find 2 of the 3 missing keys.  The one that's left I already knew where it was, because I saw the outline of the creature holding it (with the dark visor).  I just have not figured out how to get to it in the corresponding Dark Aether area.[/spoiler]

So this is where I quit last night.

I'm glad I decided to stick to the game after my ranting.  You're right about it being rewarding.  A lot of thought and love went into it.  It would have been a shame if I allowed some unfortunate excessive difficulty here and there to scare me away.

[Quemaqua]

Glad to hear you say it.

And I don't know that the key hunt is bad, it's just that I was totally done with the game at that point and wanted it to be over.  I'd been very thorough and found an awful lot of the gear, and I was just ready for the final encounter.  I didn't need to travel all over the world one last time, you know?  I wish it had been integrated into some earlier gameplay somehow, because the mechanics behind it were fun, I just didn't want to do all the traveling.