Topic: Rise of the Argonauts THREAD (Action-RPG by Liquid Entertainment)

[MysterD]

Here's an E3 2008 video with Gamespot w/ Ed Del Castillo of Liquid Entertainment for Rise of the Argonauts, which is an action-RPG coming for PC, PS3 and X360.

Also, here's a brand new interview (written) with Ed Del Castillo from GameSpot UK.

It has been just over a year since we first saw Rise of the Argonauts and a couple of months since we first got to play it. We still had myriad unanswered questions about the scope, plot, and ideas behind the game after having gotten a bit more info at E3 2008, so we put some of them to Ed Del Castillo, president of Liquid Entertainment.

GameSpot UK: According to the crew list, you seem to be playing fast and loose with the mythology. Is this going to be a theme for the game?

Ed Del Castillo: Well, we use these great myths and legends as our inspiration--our starting point--but we're making our own take on it where it serves gameplay, the story, and the player experience. The Jason myth is one of the only places in Greek myth that you get such a confluence of great heroes, so we're kind of assembling the X-Men of mythology. There's a rich backstory, there's incredible characters, but we're also using artistic license to take it to the next level--we couldn't pass up that opportunity.

GSUK: Will the game feature stories from across the whole range of Greek myth and legend? Or will it stick fairly closely to the tales of the Argo and her crew?

EDC: The story is a completely revamped telling of the Greek myth to get the Golden Fleece. It will cross into other myth territory, but we try to keep that to a minimum. While we don't necessarily want to be an educational tool, we would like to inspire people to learn more about Greek myth.

GSUK: The gods always played a central role in Greek mythology, often taking situations entirely out of the hands of the central characters. What sort of influence do they have in the game?

EDC: The gods play a symbiotic role with man, which we begin to explore in this game. At first, Jason sees the gods as taskmasters, but as he progresses, he and the player can start to see the gods playing more of a servile role. The truth is somewhere in the middle. Gods in our interpretation are the whetstones that sharpen the human spirit to achieve its full potential.

GSUK: What sort of abilities will be bestowed on Jason by the four gods he can follow? Will it be viable to try to balance all four?

EDC: [There are] some really cool abilities that will be both passive (meaning that they always work) and active (meaning that the player has to turn them on); all mappable to the D pad on consoles. The powers are in line with the ethos of a given god, and they serve the greater narrative in some way. Sure, it'll be viable to try and balance all four if that's how you want to play--that will all depend on how the player wants to progress Jason. One example of a god power that Ares will bestow upon Jason is the Ares Armour. Once mapped to the D pad, Jason can call upon a shining metal suit of armour that will make Jason invulnerable to enemy attack for a period of time.

GSUK: What other factors will govern your character development?

EDC: As Jason accomplishes things in the world, they will be recorded as deeds. These deeds can be dedicated to gods at shrines, which is the main way to earn a god's favour toward you. The more favour you have with gods, the more powers they unlock for you. How you respond in your interaction with characters also affects the favour of the gods. Furthermore, there are different weapons (swords, maces, and spears) and armour to pick up-- each with its own special power/ability.

GSUK: Can you tell us which mythological beasts players are likely to face as they control the crew of the Argo?

EDC: We take the myth creatures very seriously, so you shouldn't expect this to be a menagerie of creatures all thrown together one room after another for the sake of it. We take care to interpret and craft each beast and character individually, but, for instance, we have new takes on the Minotaur, Manticore, and Medusa--just to throw out the Ms.

GSUK: What can you tell us about the dynamics of the combat system and the way that items interact with each other?

EDC: For combat, we looked more to games like Ninja Gaiden and Devil May Cry than we did to our role-playing game contemporaries. We want players to get excited when they fight, to experience this fast-paced, brutal combat. We buried the stats, health points, and other numbers as much as possible and replaced them with in-world visual queues for a slicker, more immersive, real-time experience. Combat in our game both looks and feels really cool. It's pretty bloody and gruesome where appropriate too.

GSUK: How important a role does equipment play in your quest? And, what items do we have to look forward to?

EDC: Equipment is obviously important; it needs to be fun to obtain and cool to use, but it's not the key to the game. We don't have items just for the sake of it. We give the player gear that makes sense, so that everything they come across has an appropriate content, relevance, and use--what you choose to pick up and how you choose to use it is up to you. Jason will pick up different weapons, which have special abilities throughout the game, but gain enough favour with any of the Gods, and they will even offer Jason the chance to gain the ultimate weapon; be it mace, sword, or spear.

GSUK: What role will Medea, and Jason's relationship with her, play in Rise of the Argonauts?

EDC: Medea is a powerful ex-sorceress of Hecate's who is now trying to hunt down and kill Hecate's presence throughout the world. Teaming up with Jason starts as a mutual benefit, but Jason's ongoing interactions with her cause her to evolve into a much deeper ally.

GSUK: Finally, what, in your view, will make Rise of the Argonauts stand out from its competitors?

EDC: We have a rich, compelling story for the player first and foremost, and all the gameplay mechanics serve this experience. If you're playing this game to kill 5,367 boars and rats or to min max your character, you're going to be disappointed. Instead, we have streamlined RPG features, slick, brutal real-time combat, and a truly compelling world that begs to be explored. But the crucial design decision, which we took early on, was that everything in the game is there to support a compelling, narrative experience. To borrow the cliche, it's kind of an all-killer, no-filler approach. There are no needless collection tasks, there are no overwhelming stats; we try to keep as much as possible as seamless and in-game as possible. Everything has a context, a relevance, [and] a consequence as the player progresses through this beautiful world as inspired by the Greek mythologies. We think this kind of play is the future.

[Xessive]

Huh, I thought there was a thread of RotA already. Anyway, thanks MyD

I've been following up on this one and it looks pretty interesting. I am primarily interested on Liquid's take on pushing RPGs to "the next level" as they have said in the videos.

So far it looks like a cross between Mass Effect and God of War. Looks like it'll be fun!

[MysterD]

Preview from UGO

EDIT - Sept 1, 2008:
IGN preview

[MysterD]

Delayed until 2009

[Xessive]

Delayed until 2009

All the better for them to refine it.

No complaints.

[MysterD]

Plus, there's tons of big-title games dropping like....ummm, from now until Christmas, anyways...

[MysterD]

Oh, it's actually out now, by the way...
So much for it coming out in 2009....

6.0 from GameSpot for X360 Version.

Here's G-Spot's take.

Basically, they *love* the combat system and the skill system.
But, the voice-acting is awful and the dialogue is terribly written.
Get this -- the game has a heavy emphasis on dialogue and story more so than the combat.

It's unfortunate that so much of your time in Rise of the Argonauts is spent in conversation, because much of the dialogue is poorly written and the voice acting is even worse. It's conceivable that one is the victim of the other, but certainly neither deserves any credit for keeping the story compelling. Even on the rare occasions that the script and the actors work well together, poor sound design results in unnatural pauses and in volume levels that compete with background noise or have you reaching for your TV remote. The lack of believable expressions on characters' faces doesn't help matters, nor do the load screens that frequently appear at the most inopportune times--occasionally so quickly after a piece of dialogue that there's some doubt as to whether or not the character talking was even allowed to finish.

To say that Rise of the Argonauts has pacing issues would be an understatement of Olympian proportions; so much of your time is spent running around and talking to people that combat feels like a rare treat rather than a focus of the game. It's a real shame that getting to the end of this adventure is as much a test of patience as it is a test of skill, because the combat gets increasingly satisfying as your arsenal of moves and equipment grows. It's true that only boss encounters will pose any real challenge on the default difficulty setting toward the end, but by then that feels appropriate because you're wielding godlike weapons and powers that can literally call down lightning from the heavens. With a greater emphasis on combat and fewer technical shortcomings, Rise of the Argonauts could have been easy to recommend. As it is, though, this is a great story poorly told.

[Xessive]

That's a shame. I was looking forward to it.

[gpw11]

Yeah same.  I'll probably still try it out at some point though.

[Xessive]

Apparently the PC version is out here but none of the console versions! It's selling for about $55, which a little on the pricey side considering the current reviews. Luckily I was able to check it out in the little store.

Not the best start for a game. Immediately following the intro you start in combat, you get some tutorials but they feel disjointed and almost inappropriately setup. You're not really told what you're supposed to be doing or where you ought to be going. Overall I'd say the start is a bit of a turn-off.

Sadly, it requires an X360 controller for PC. I was using a keyboard + mouse which is not great for the game, especially since you cannot bind your own keys. They have 3 configs to choose from and that's it. Sucks, but hopefully that little X360 pad emulation driver I found can work around that.

Honestly I don't see what Justin Calvert (Gamespot) is talking about with "bad voice acting?" The voice acting is not bad at all. Sure, there's a guard or two whose voice acting sounds more on the meh side but the main cast and characters sound pretty decent. I can't say much for the actual dialogue other than it's pretty basic, it's no masterpiece of writing or anything.

I did experience some bad sound quality though where sometimes the voice gets drowned out by the ambient noise.

The camera is fine. Not a free cam but it gets the job done and it doesn't obstruct you. I don't see how it got a "bad camera" demerit.

I'm not sure about the "Busted graphics" demerit.. I didn't experience any visual problems. The game just doesn't looks that good: low-res textures, low-poly models, lack of variety, and the animation is not fantastic but passable. It looks more like it was developed for the PS2 or the original Xbox.

Gameplay-wise, yeah they pretty much fudged it up. Way too much running around and talking. The level design is sophomoric. The environments aren't immersive at all. It's pretty accurate to say that Liquid have sacrificed too much of both action and RPG genres to try to maintain their "pure" hybrid idea.

The game did crash randomly a couple of times (which was my argument for not buying after trying it).

It deserves a 6/10 but not for the demerits Gamespot gave it. It's kinda sad. It had so much potential.

Maybe I was subconsciously anticipating a Mass Effect-esque Greek mythology action-RPG.

[MysterD]

You can't bind the keyboard mouse controls to your own configuration and choosing? You have to pick b/t a few schemes? Ummm...WTF??!!? Good thing I own a 360 controller for my PC.

Oh, so how is the actual combat itself, Xessive?

Sounds like this game would be worth a shot, in the bargain bins.

About the game doing too much talking...games that do that, they need to have stellar voice-acting and dialogue -- i.e. NOLF game series (very underrated stuff there), The Witcher: Enhanced, TLJ, and Dreamfall to make you want to grab the popcorn and sit back to enjoy all of it.

[Xessive]

Yep, you're stuck with one of three control schemes they graciously give you.

The combat was quite decent. Nothing out of the ordinary though, it's what you'd expect of an action or "beat 'em up" title.

You expect a lot of dialogue and general chit-chat when you play an adventure or roleplaying game, but RotA takes it too far for something that's suppsoed to be an Action-RPG hybrid; it feels like it's full of generic dialogue for the sake of qualifying for the "RPG" half of the equation rather than having any actual substance.

It's totally bargain bin material. Personally I wouldn't pay more than $15 for it.

[MysterD]

Apparently the PC version is out here but none of the console versions! It's selling for about $55, which a little on the pricey side considering the current reviews. Luckily I was able to check it out in the little store.

Not the best start for a game. Immediately following the intro you start in combat, you get some tutorials but they feel disjointed and almost inappropriately setup. You're not really told what you're supposed to be doing or where you ought to be going. Overall I'd say the start is a bit of a turn-off.

Overall, I liked the intro -- about the story of the woman's death and all of that. I thought all of that was well done.

I think they should've introduced the God system much earlier; namely, once you get your first "Achievement" to the Gods (which likely is Kill 5 Enemies) -- and explained it all much earlier on.

Sadly, it requires an X360 controller for PC. I was using a keyboard + mouse which is not great for the game, especially since you cannot bind your own keys. They have 3 configs to choose from and that's it. Sucks, but hopefully that little X360 pad emulation driver I found can work around that.

My complaint with the KB/Mouse controls has nothing to do w/ the feel of the controls -- they're fine there. My complaint is your complaint -- you can't bind your own keys. What's worse if this is a Unreal-Engine powered game, so it really makes me scratch my head why there isn't any bind-your-own key options.

X360 controller is fine for this game for me. It's probably what I'm gonna stick with, since it was VERY easy to learn those controls. Combat feels so right to me on the 360 controller. It feels downright brutal -- especially w/ the 360 controller, when it vibrates when you land a hard shot and all. The sound from the weapon with the mace, that really thumps -- and sounds really good. The violence looks good, as well -- which is always a plus.

Honestly I don't see what Justin Calvert (Gamespot) is talking about with "bad voice acting?" The voice acting is not bad at all. Sure, there's a guard or two whose voice acting sounds more on the meh side but the main cast and characters sound pretty decent. I can't say much for the actual dialogue other than it's pretty basic, it's no masterpiece of writing or anything.

The camera is fine. Not a free cam but it gets the job done and it doesn't obstruct you. I don't see how it got a "bad camera" demerit.

Agreed.

I'm not sure about the "Busted graphics" demerit.. I didn't experience any visual problems. The game just doesn't looks that good: low-res textures, low-poly models, lack of variety, and the animation is not fantastic but passable. It looks more like it was developed for the PS2 or the original Xbox.

I think the graphics are fine....but I think this got the demerit for the "stuttering" issue that the game every now and then has -- which can be annoying.

I tried 800x600 and 1024x768 -- and the game still did the stutter now and then, regardless. I remember Gears of War PC had this stutter, too. Is this an Unreal Engine 3 issues or something? I don't recall Bioshock having the stutter, though...

I'mma go play this more so I can more of an opinion on the gameplay and all of that -- w/ the God system, skill system, and the leveling up process.

[MysterD]

Rise of the Argonauts has certainly gotten better, as it has gone along -- with more skills, God powers, and abilities gained as you go along and all. Seems like there's more action, too. Sure, still lots of dialogue, which is fine and all -- but at least there's more action here than in the start, where it really seemed to be lacking action; especially for a game calling itself an "action-RPG". It really took too long in the beginning to get going with the action -- gets better, once you get the boat and all.

About technical stuff -- WTF is up w/ the game every now and then crashing in dialogue? Very annoying.

[Xessive]

About technical stuff -- WTF is up w/ the game every now and then crashing in dialogue? Very annoying.

Yep, I experienced that too. It was very frustrating especially since the save system is based on wide-stretched checkpoints.

[MysterD]

The technical issues are just foolish -- the stuttering issues and the dialogue CTD's. I don't know how those kinds of silliness got by QA for a game that autosaves whenever. At least it usually autosaves often.

Did you finish this game, X?

[Xessive]

Miraculously, yes I did. It was more like a tedious quest than an enjoyable game though. I mainly did it just to have "bitching rights," so my complaints are founded.

It was kind of a learnign experience too, it makes a good "what not to do" for game development and decisions.

[MysterD]

I don't mind the long-winded dialogues and all -- it's just for a game labeled "Action-RPG", it seem to really take too long to get to some action -- it got much better, after getting off the first area and onto the boat. Even more so true that it took too long to get to action, since I really dig the combat A LOT.

I like the whole concept of doing stuff a little different here in an action-RPG for doing a "deed" nets you say one skill point -- for say doing a quest; siding with X God X amount of times; with breaking X amounts of shields; killing X enemies of X type; execution move used on X enemies; killing X enemies with sword; killing X enemies with a mace; killing X enemies with the spear; using X amount of God powers; etc etc. That is actually a cool system, but I think it could've been baked a little bit better here.

All of these deeds you do, it gets you basically a point -- to spread out on whatever skill tree you pick from whatever God. You need like -- usually 3 or 4 or 5 or so of these -- to fill up that bar so you can gain one NEW ability. Reminds me a lot of Vamp BL's system -- except with Vamp, they gave you X amount of (a set number of) skill points to spend ONLY once you finished a quest.

It didn't feel like dialogue mattered too much in shaping your character and his abilities, either -- since to me, it feels like the game could've went that angle since the game has lots of dialogue options. Even if the game's events were linear and it followed one beat path -- which they seem to do here, for the most part -- this could've really been interesting to have some dialogue choices you make specifically shape your skill set even more so (instead of you just getting point and spending it on whatever). That could've been really interesting, in an action-RPG -- and much different.

But, this system this game has, seems it feels WAY TOO open for this kind of game. God-specific responses in dialogues and point-rewards in combat should've matter more in shaping your character's abilities -- would've made the dialogue choices and combat matter more, I'd think. What do I mean? If I side w/ say Ares in dialogue 5 times and get credit for "Making 5 Ares aligned choices", I should be stuck with....duh, using that devotion to Ares ONLY, whether I like it or not -- that or you get MORE credit on filling that bar up for devoting that deed to Ares. It just makes more sense to me. Same w/ say the sword rewards in combat -- if I got credit for "killing X enemies with a sword," I should be able only to use that on the God Hermes, who favors the sword -- or I should get more credit on filling that bar up for using it on Hermes' skill set than some other God.

I can understand leaving  ANY of the main quest and side stuff you finish open to devote to any God, though -- since those really ain't God-specific at all.

Oh, I think there should've been more skills, myself. Would've made the game even more interesting.

Regardless, I still like this game -- it's just I wish some of technical stupidities weren't here, as there are numerous times where the game crashed (during dialogue ONLY!) and the occasional framerate stutters just annoyed me. Despite those technical issues, which annoy me most about this game, I still been plowing through this...

EDIT, July 4th, 2009 - 1:38 PM:
Just finished ROTA. Took a good while to get through that final battle and all....
Time to uninstall...