Topic: You know you are getting old when

[scottws]

...you really really really want a Ford Taurus.

I'm sorry, but the 2010 Taurus is awesome.

[idolminds]

Oh my god that is the worst idea I have ever...


Hey, that doesn't look so bad.

[iPPi]

I'm not a fan of American cars at all.

That said, when you start considering a sedan for its convenience and functionality, then yea, you're getting older.

[W7RE]

I just don't want to drive. It's too much of a headache. If only we had teleportation technology.

[ScaryTooth]

I like driving for the most part. Some roads are just fun to drive. Ford is really making some headway. Their stocks have been going up up up. Glad I bought some shares.

My next car will probably be a Honda though. They just last forever.

[iPPi]

Honda and Toyota have been having some technical difficulties as of late.  Hopefully they can walk away from it without a major tarnish on their reputation but we'll have to see how they handle these recalls.

[Quemaqua]

You know, I love the *act* of driving, but I hate the whole... thing.  Commuting, having to be on the road all the time... I fucking hate it.  I really do.  If I could never own another car yet still get places conveniently, I would totally never own another car.  Expensive piece of shit.

[PyroMenace]

Haha, I do notice you seem to be afflicted by lots of road rage.

[Quemaqua]

You have no idea.  I drive like a maniac most of the time, now, just because I can't stand being on the road anymore and the only thing that brings me any pleasure is scaring the daylights out of other people.

[gpw11]

The one time I can be a snap show is while driving.  99% of the time I'm fine and just like "You know, you're a fucking idiot....whatever".  I don't lay on the horn, I don't yell, I don't tail gate or do stupid shit. 

Once in a blue moon, however, someone will do something so fucking dumb that it just blows my mind and I jump to Phase Four and someone else takes over.  It's never an old lady, or some family, it's always once I know who it is and just imagine that they did it because they thought they'd get away with it. Merging onto a bridge a few weeks ago this chick just blatantly hopped the line and cut me off.  You know, people can be assholes and sometimes things like that happen, but they get theirs eventually and there's no point in getting worked up over it.  BUT as she did she blatently avoided eyecontact and kind of smirked.  IT IS FUCKING ON YOU BITCH YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU JUST BROUGHT OUT IN ME YOU HOOP EARRING WEARING WHORE IN AN AUTOBODY LOANER OR PARTS CAR.

So, obviously, she's right in front of the for the next 4 or so minutes crossing the Lions Gate Bridge.  My high beams are on and I'm perfectly positioned behind her so that they're hitting her rear view.  Bridge ends and the the lanes split, I pull out and pass her in the slow lane, and she lets me because fuck...who wants highbeams in their eyes?  And then I get in front of her, switch back the fast lane and match speed with the next car in the slow lane.  DIDN'T SAVE ANY TIME NOW DID YOU?! 

Um, as for Ford...yeah they're really turning it around.  I'm surprised that they still brand the new models as Taurus.  Brand marketing kind of dictates that you just deep six the one with the bad connotations and just give it a new name if you plan on either jumping up or dropping down in quality.

Honda and Toyota are in a bit of trouble (well, not really but both are losing ground).  They've been living off of the bulletproof reputation for about ten years longer than they've been building bulletproof cars (especially Toyota).  Don't get me wrong, they're extremely good and hold resale more than pretty much any other mainstream economy cars, but in reliability tests they don't come close to the late 80's, early 90's cars that they took the world over with.  The recent issues are probably more press than anything, but at the end of the day they cost a premium more than they used to and they don't last as long...if that's what you're looking for.

The mainstream consumer cars that everyone is watching out for is Hyundai/KIA right now. Fastest growing manufacturer in the world (4th largest in the world behind Toyota, GM, and VW) during the boom and the recession and the "only manufacturer that Toyota is scared of". They turned it around by basically carbon copying the model Toyota came up on; Sell cars cheap, offer a range of models every low/mid market, pour money into R&D and quality management. It's paying off for them so far.  Fortune just had a major article on them and was commenting on how quick of a turnaround it was and they're poised to put a boot into European manufacturers as well.

When I had to replace my Tercedes I had to get something fast.  I was going to go with a newer Civic, but I'm not a huge fan of how they drive now.  It's not bad, but they're not really the zippy midsize cars they were....they're more aimed at comfort...which is good, but the blind spots kind of threw me off. A fit wasn't something I was considering, Corollas ain't fucking cheap anymore, and the Yaris sedan...well, Toyota does not move on ANYTHING. Long story short, I researched the hell out of Hyundai and KIA, took a big gamble because I like certain risk/reward ratios, and bought a 2008 RIO (exact same platform and engine as the Accent Sedan) for $9000 cash. New. Did the overall cost of ownership and it's basically cheaper than a bus pass (well...not really, but you get the point). That was like 2 years ago and 35,000 k in of driving and I haven't had a hint of a problem.  3 years/65,000 k warranty left and I checked blue book value a while ago - about $800 less than I paid for it (sticker was $13,500).



You're not impressing anyone with that, but it gets you to work and to school and basically runs on fumes. I'll take the hit of a gay car for a few years to save some bucks, but overall, I've been really impressed.

[scottws]

I rented a 2010 Hyundai Sonata when I was in Boston just before Christmas.  I would refer to it as "fake luxury".  It was a nice looking car outside, but I felt the inside was really cheap and uncomfortable and it didn't drive very nicely.  The steering was so overboosted that I would come around turns and the wheel wouldn't center itself.  It felt like a cheap economy car with overboosted steering.

[Cobra951]

My memories of a certain '89 Mercury Sable (Taurus) are not good at all.  When it started having major troubles, I had a mechanic tell me they were 60,000-mile cars.  Great.  We ended up literally junking it.  Cost of repairs were more than the value of the car the final time in the shop.

I'd love driving, if I didn't have to share the road with all the morons.  I enjoy driving at off hours, when the roads have very light traffic.  And even then, some miscreant with square miles of surface to choose from manages to try to cut me off or otherwise provoke me.  I've been deliberately trying to prevent road rage for years now, but someone out there eventually makes me fail.

The problems Toyota is having are baffling, even if they only happen rarely.  The 3 most important things in any car are braking, steering and acceleration, in that order.  2 botched out of 3 is unbelievable.

[scottws]

My memories of a certain '89 Mercury Sable (Taurus) are not good at all.  When it started having major troubles, I had a mechanic tell me they were 60,000-mile cars.  Great.  We ended up literally junking it.  Cost of repairs were more than the value of the car the final time in the shop.

I had two '90 Tauruses (Tauri?) and I concur.  They were crap. They both lasted to 140,000 miles and were in really bad shape by then.  The transmissions started slipping badly around 90,000 miles on both and they were ultimately what failed me in both cars.

The thing is, 80's and 90's American cars were engineered to be disposable.  I guess the American manufacturers thought that having cars fail sooner would boost their sales but really all it ended up doing is ruining their reputations and driving sales to European and especially Japanese manufacturers.

Supposedly the American manufacturers have learned their lesson and are engineering the new cars the last couple of years to have greater longevity.  I guess it remains to be seen how long these cars will end up lasting still so it's all just words right now with nothing to back them up.

[gpw11]

I rented a 2010 Hyundai Sonata when I was in Boston just before Christmas.  I would refer to it as "fake luxury".  It was a nice looking car outside, but I felt the inside was really cheap and uncomfortable and it didn't drive very nicely.  The steering was so overboosted that I would come around turns and the wheel wouldn't center itself.  It felt like a cheap economy car with overboosted steering.

Yeah, I've driven one (2009) and completely agree with everything you just said. Fake luxery is a great description, but that's probably the appeal for those who buy them. It's classified as a midsize, most of which are decidedly more modest (yet, probably better designed). Actually, thinking about it, but I don't think I like any of the current models in the midsize class. I feel both the Accord and Camry (different years) also have had some weird floaty handling going on.  I know in the 90's the Accords at least were actually pretty fun to drive, but the modern one I drove for a bit just didn't feel right.

It's the same for me with Ford trucks.  I haven't driven a new one, but I know the ones from at least 99-2004 felt like they had their power steering boosted way up and it just didn't feel right.

As for KIA Hyundai, I don't know where their major marketshare gains are, but I'd imagine it's against the Civic, Yaris, Fit, and Corolla - so in the revised classes (unlike the Sonata).  That seems to be where the steam is coming from; their brand roll overs, revisions, and additions  from the last couple years are all doing very very well. I know the Fortune article specifically mentioned the Genesis, Forte, and Soul as additions that are shaking things up and the Rio/Accent as being a revision that is just chipping away at the competition. Pricing and initial reviews are basically where it's coming from, but it's interesting that it's not only occurring in the most price sensitive areas.

With American auto's new emphasis on quality, if they want to get there they will.  Quality control in automobile manufacturing isn't magic, it's probably planning and resources.  Apart from the obvious cases of design defects (never buy the first model year of any revision new), it mostly just comes down to proper line control and quality manuals for product realization. Typically, in brand building based industries, there are two options; spend the money on quality control or spend the money on warranties. In the 80's and 90's American auto did neither....and it bit them in the ass.

[Cobra951]

I had two '90 Tauruses (Tauri?) and I concur.  They were crap. They both lasted to 140,000 miles and were in really bad shape by then.  The transmissions started slipping badly around 90,000 miles on both and they were ultimately what failed me in both cars.

The thing is, 80's and 90's American cars were engineered to be disposable.  I guess the American manufacturers thought that having cars fail sooner would boost their sales but really all it ended up doing is ruining their reputations and driving sales to European and especially Japanese manufacturers.

Supposedly the American manufacturers have learned their lesson and are engineering the new cars the last couple of years to have greater longevity.  I guess it remains to be seen how long these cars will end up lasting still so it's all just words right now with nothing to back them up.

Guys, I think that's too much generalization.  It really depends on the car.  The Taurus/Sable was particularly damning for Ford.  My Mustang has gone strong for 15 years with only a radiator and some idle-throttle piece to replace (beyond normal maintenance).  It will still go from 70 to 110 in one flat-out pass, and gets 20 mpg when I don't do that.  Hell, the CD player and keyless remotes still work.  Both of these cars have received the same level of care, so it's not like mine was babied and the Sable beat to death.  The excuse is that the Sable was an early Ford entry into midsized FWD, and the problems were growing pains.  Well, if they're supposed to be their pains, why did we feel them?  But they did have the conventional front-engine, RWD design just about perfected even then, and there's no more bulletproof engine than the 40-year old 302.

So the question is, did they finally get the FWD drivetrain right in the Taurus?  I do trust Ford products in general.  Just not that one.

[ren]

You know, I love the *act* of driving, but I hate the whole... thing.  Commuting, having to be on the road all the time... I fucking hate it.  I really do.  If I could never own another car yet still get places conveniently, I would totally never own another car.  Expensive piece of shit.

I actually enjoy commuting and being in traffic. Traffic is a perfect excuse to be late for anything and it just gives me more time to listen to music or podcasts. The only thing better than being stuck driving in traffic is being stuck on the bus. You get extra sympathy because the only thing people like to bitch about more than traffic is public transportation. And on top of listening to music, you get to read/be productive at the same time.

Maybe my time just isn't valuable.

[Quemaqua]

No, those things aren't so bad.  I don't mind that aspect.  The problem is when you do it *so much* you have no more music that you haven't heard a million times, nothing more to read, or like in my case, you're just too tired to do much of that anyway (though obviously now that I'm in a car and not the subway, I can't read or anything anyway).

[gpw11]

Guys, I think that's too much generalization.  It really depends on the car.  The Taurus/Sable was particularly damning for Ford.  My Mustang has gone strong for 15 years with only a radiator and some idle-throttle piece to replace (beyond normal maintenance).  It will still go from 70 to 110 in one flat-out pass, and gets 20 mpg when I don't do that.  Hell, the CD player and keyless remotes still work.  Both of these cars have received the same level of care, so it's not like mine was babied and the Sable beat to death.  The excuse is that the Sable was an early Ford entry into midsized FWD, and the problems were growing pains.  Well, if they're supposed to be their pains, why did we feel them?  But they did have the conventional front-engine, RWD design just about perfected even then, and there's no more bulletproof engine than the 40-year old 302.

So the question is, did they finally get the FWD drivetrain right in the Taurus?  I do trust Ford products in general.  Just not that one.

I think you're right, but I think a lot of it is also strategy. The Mustang is and was a flagship, and with the higher margins it most likely got all the R&D.  Trucks are very reliable as well.  The main criticism of American auto is that it hasn't moved away from that.  Toyota, Honda, and VW (well, not so much VW) dominated because they put just as much R&D and quality control into their low end as they did into their high end.  Ford did a great job with the Mustang, but they just banged the Taurus together out of cheap parts and tossed it on the market. I remember looking at reliability reports in used auto books and seeing massive amounts of recalls straight through at least until '99. The reason I was looking?  Didn't hold any resale. 

But yeah, I don't think it was due to any design ineptitude.  I think it was just a reflection of a different business model/priorities.

[Cobra951]

That makes sense.  I was thinking of Ford trucks too when I wrote my last post.  Ford tried a smaller FWD sedan in the mid-90s, based on the Mondeo.  That became the Contour and Mystique, and both apparently flopped in the market.  Have you heard of any similar problems with that one?  Sandy has a 2003 Lincoln Town Car, and that thing still smells new.  Solid car, but also traditional V8 drivetrain.  Now they have the Focus, which so far looks good, though I haven't looked at any reports on it, because I haven't seriously looked into cars in years.

The Escort's been OK since it morphed into a Mazda, no?

Edit:  That brings up another question:  What is an American car, or American-car company anymore?

[scottws]

I'm not sure about the Contour/Mystique.  All I know is my friend had a Mystique and he called it the "Mystake".  The Focus seems solid, but it is changing for 2011 (or is it 2012?).  They are bringing the true Euro Focus over.

Is the Escort still around?  If so, it must just be a fleet vehicle.

[Cobra951]

No.  As I just discovered, the Focus is considered the Escort's successor.  It only took me about 8 years to figure that out, which shows how much I care about the Escort.

[TheOtherBelmont]

Speaking of the Ford Focus, I just got a 2010 Ford Focus a couple of months ago and I'm loving it so far.  My first new car actually.  It has a surprising amount of kick in the acceleration for the type of car it is and they look pretty slick, feels like driving a small sports car.  The car handles really well too and gets great gas mileage, I usually average between 33-35 mpg.  I was leaning between the Focus and a Hyundai Accent and while the Focus was a little more expensive, I'm glad I picked it.

[scottws]

No.  As I just discovered, the Focus is considered the Escort's successor.  It only took me about 8 years to figure that out, which shows how much I care about the Escort.

I have a 2001 Escort ZX2 (the two door coupe).  It's a piece of shit.  I have 132,000 miles on it.  Here are the problems:

• I can't take it out of Park without using the manual override.  I have a small screwdriver in my car for this purpose.  The shop told me it would be a few hundred dollars to fix.  No thanks.
• The air conditioning doesn't work.
• The automatic transmission slips.
• It rattles and vibrates badly.
• The vent fan is noisy, like bad bearings.  I've already replaced it once.
• The catalytic converter's shield fell off long ago.
• There is a small water pump leak.  The fix is a new water pump.  No thanks.

I got this car for $800 after I wrecked my 2002 Taurus SES without insurance.  I liked that Taurus.  I guess for the money I paid for my current car I can say that it gets good gas mileage and gets me from A-B.  For all it's problems, it's actually never let me down, but I think the transmission going to give up the ghost shortly after 140,000 miles.

I want one of those new Taurus', but they are pretty pricey.  I may get a Fusion instead, or a Focus if that proves to be too expensive.  One thing that pisses me off is American auto manufacturers' aversion to manual transmissions.  There might be one available in the 2010 Taurus, but only if you get an SHO and even then I'm not sure.  For the Fusion you need to get the base trim package and a 4-cylinder engine.  I'm not sure about the Focus, but I'm sure there's one available somewhere down around the base model.

It's like they consider manuals a poor-man's transmission.  I can't speak for anyone else, but I would choose a manual 9 times out of 10.  The only exception being some sort of cruiser like a Lincoln Town Car.  I just don't get why they don't give you the choice.  Is it because they haven't tested the stick with the 6-cylinder?  I can't see any other reason why they'd offer it on a model with one engine but not another.  I see even less reason why they take the option away if you go up a trim model but keep the same engine.