Author Topic: Ground zero mosque  (Read 48805 times)

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #40 on: Friday, February 11, 2011, 07:57:45 AM »
*Exactly*

These views are really foreign to me as well. I've never heard any of the white people I've worked or mingled with say anything this islamophobic, and I've had a lot of frank conversations with a lot of people I've gotten close with. Many express fears etc., but nothing this irrational.

Offline K-man

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #41 on: Friday, February 11, 2011, 11:25:11 AM »
I agree with Cobra.

You guys sound very naive at times. How many of you would actually want to live near a Mosque?


Why would I care?  It's a place of worship.  Unless it's got an AK-47 shooting range behind it I'm not the least bit concerned.

Offline Cools!

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #42 on: Friday, February 11, 2011, 12:29:23 PM »
You need to go out more then.

People aren't as "nice" as you think they are, even in Canada. I live in an area with a mosque and whenever someone who hasn't been to the area comes over, a small percentage of them will cringe in that not so subtle way. They don't have to actually say anything (some do) to make their dislike clear. Luckily it's not a majority among my generation and youth, but it's still present even though we are supposed to be so enlightened and free of prejudice.

And yes, what I've seen in Canada is nothing compared to what I've personally experienced when I lived in in other countries, like Belgium, or what I hear from my relatives in Germany and Russia these days. If you've never been on the receiving end of racism in Canada, consider yourself lucky, because after having lived in 5 countries I have, and I known it all to well by now to spot it even in the smallest of facial expression.

I don't attribute it to human nature. I'm not justifying anything. I'm simply pointing out that even in countries like Canada there is plenty of racism, repressed or not. It's great that you guys are so free of hate that you wouldn't hesitate to live in a Muslim area, but I've seen first hand that it's not the case for everyone. So I'm hardly surprised at the reaction against the NY mosque.

Offline ren

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #43 on: Friday, February 11, 2011, 01:20:41 PM »
I meant more the Muslims as the enemy rather than ordinary racism.

Offline K-man

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #44 on: Friday, February 11, 2011, 02:20:22 PM »
You need to go out more then.

People aren't as "nice" as you think they are, even in Canada. I live in an area with a mosque and whenever someone who hasn't been to the area comes over, a small percentage of them will cringe in that not so subtle way. They don't have to actually say anything (some do) to make their dislike clear. Luckily it's not a majority among my generation and youth, but it's still present even though we are supposed to be so enlightened and free of prejudice.


You asked if I specifically would want to live near a mosque, and I told you it wouldn't bother me.  I can't and won't speak for anyone else.  If they're so easily swayed by media to believe there's no such thing as a good Muslim then they are ignorant or dumb.  Maybe both.

Not all of us share the "Larry the Cable Guy" outlook on the Muslim population.

I mean come on, a number of Muslims in Egypt put themselves in danger recently to essentially be a meat shield for Christians wishing to hold services.  I guarantee you Glenn Beck didn't mention that on-air.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #45 on: Friday, February 11, 2011, 02:42:17 PM »
You need to go out more then.

People aren't as "nice" as you think they are, even in Canada. I live in an area with a mosque and whenever someone who hasn't been to the area comes over, a small percentage of them will cringe in that not so subtle way. They don't have to actually say anything (some do) to make their dislike clear. Luckily it's not a majority among my generation and youth, but it's still present even though we are supposed to be so enlightened and free of prejudice.

And yes, what I've seen in Canada is nothing compared to what I've personally experienced when I lived in in other countries, like Belgium, or what I hear from my relatives in Germany and Russia these days. If you've never been on the receiving end of racism in Canada, consider yourself lucky, because after having lived in 5 countries I have, and I known it all to well by now to spot it even in the smallest of facial expression.

I don't attribute it to human nature. I'm not justifying anything. I'm simply pointing out that even in countries like Canada there is plenty of racism, repressed or not. It's great that you guys are so free of hate that you wouldn't hesitate to live in a Muslim area, but I've seen first hand that it's not the case for everyone. So I'm hardly surprised at the reaction against the NY mosque.

I think we are talking about different degrees of dislike here.

Does racism exist? Of course it does. Like yourself, I have seen much first hand in my life. Would a normal Canadian want to live in a Muslim area if he had the choice? I doubt the answer is yes. Hell, I wouldn't want to live in a Muslim area myself, but that is more of a cultural thing than a fear of life.

I don't disagree with much of what you've said. Much like I imagine atheists, Christians, Hindus, and Jews would all prefer to live in their communities, and not be pleased with outside cultural/religious monuments being built within their areas.

That's one thing, and then what Cobra is saying is another. Objecting so vehemently to a recreation center with a mosque on top. Asking the financiers of this rec center to prove that they aren't terrorists. Asking the average Muslim to go above and beyond anything reasonable to prove themselves against extremism.

Honestly, I don't consider myself to be religious. I've studied all religions, and that's just not for me. I also think America is the greatest country in the world because it is based on the principles of tolerance and freedom. Sometimes I wonder how the founding fathers of America were so advanced in their thinking at a time when oppression still existed. It boggles my mind, but that's a different subject.

Offline Xessive

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #46 on: Friday, February 11, 2011, 02:58:28 PM »
Technically speaking, the ideals represented by the Founding Fathers (and in the Constitution) of the USA match with traditional Islamic ideals, and anything additional can coexist without compromising either set. Don't be surprised by how many "American" ideals originate from older Islamic systems, implementations, and concepts.

Ever wonder where "California" gets its name? Follow the breadcrumbs, through Spanish the origin of the name is Arabic, it means "land/kingdom of the Caliph."

We're not so different, we're just veiled, concealed by façades.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #47 on: Friday, February 11, 2011, 03:39:14 PM »
In the end it doesn't matter what originated from where to me. What matters is where it is being applied now.

Offline bullshark

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #48 on: Friday, February 11, 2011, 04:55:26 PM »
It seems to me that most people who are "living in fear" of Islam want to stay that way; they're not interested in learning more about it because they're comfortable with identifying Muslims as "enemies of the state." It's easy to point at the "evil" foreigners and say "they're the cause of all our woes." It was the Russians the last couple of decades, and the Japanese before that.

I run into this a lot.  No matter how I live my life, no matter how many facts I throw out there, none of it matters if the person I'm talking to already has their mind made up.  When I present facts, I am summarily dismissed as being brainwashed, distorting the truth, or being an apologetic.  One of the first things I ask people when I hear discriminatory things about muslims is, "Have you ever spoken to a muslim about this?  Have you ever been to a mosque?  What are your sources of information?"  Of course the caveat being sometimes you get muslims who say things and don't know what they're really talking about but still, you get my point. 

Where people get their information is more important than ever.  If I wanted to learn about American black history, would I go online to a white supremacist site?  If I wanted to learn about Judaism, would I go online to an neo-nazi forum?  And on and on and on.  So why do so many people go online to these websites that clearly have an agenda against Islam and muslims to learn about what I and over a billion, BILLION, people believe?  Why not speak to respected muslims themselves? 



Regarding the ground zero mosque...

I find it interesting that this issue was huge running up to the elections.  Post elections, not too much chatter.  Interesting.

The term "Ground Zero Mosque" is misleading.  First as previously stated by others, the building proposed is a cultural and recreation center that includes a mosque on premises.  Second, it is not at Ground Zero, it is two NYC blocks away and the current building is/was an abandoned Burlington Coat Factory.  Ground Zero may rightfully be called hallowed ground but the area two blocks away certainly isn't.

There are already two mosques, one of which pre-dates the WTC, within walking distance of Ground Zero.

Then of course there is the issue of the First Amendment.

Regarding the wisdom of building this facility versus the First Amendment right to build this facility.  I would argue that it is never wise to give in to discrimination, bigotry, and hate.  Rosa Parks would be considered unwise by some for her actions.  To others she is a champion of social justice.  The long term health of our people is better served by overcoming backward attitudes and progressing forward.


Gotta love some of the stuff this guy puts out.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-august-16-2010/mosque-erade
 

Offline bullshark

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #49 on: Friday, February 11, 2011, 05:10:41 PM »
Interesting note on the destruction of the World Trade Center.  There was a muslim structural engineer from Bangladesh.  His name was Fazlur Khan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fazlur_Khan

He is responsible for the engineering behind all modern super-tall structures ever built, including the WTC.  Though he didn't personally design the WTC, he is the person who designed the structural concepts behind it.  He also was personally responsible for the design of other super-tall buildings in the US such as the Sears Tower and John Hancock Center. 

One can argue that without this muslim engineer, the WTC may never have been built.  It fascinates me that one muslim man is responsible for the creation of an amazing structure and another muslim man is responsible for its destruction.  Yet, all we hear about is the destruction.  This raises all kinds of fascinating questions.


Offline K-man

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #50 on: Friday, February 11, 2011, 07:31:45 PM »
I like this bullshark guy.

Offline Ghandi

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #51 on: Friday, February 11, 2011, 09:38:16 PM »
Bullshark is the man.


http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-august-16-2010/mosque-erade

Good link. I love the show - the humor is hit-or-miss, but his analysis is always on point and relevant. This is one of the many moments where both coalesce into brilliance.

There were actually a fair number of Muslims at the Rally to Restore Sanity that he put together in DC recently, I met a few. You should check out his speech if you haven't yet, it's quite moving (although it is more to do with the ignorance, etc of the US rather than the topic at hand). 

Offline bullshark

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #52 on: Friday, February 11, 2011, 11:29:37 PM »
I just read excerpts from that rally.  Man, you weren't kidding.  Some of that stuff was surprisingly moving and the fact that so many people showed up is most excellent.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #53 on: Saturday, February 12, 2011, 12:45:22 AM »
I like this bullshark guy.

A long time ago, in a duck fat fat away, bullshark was our regular poster. :)

Offline bullshark

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #54 on: Saturday, February 12, 2011, 12:58:22 AM »
Just for the record, none of my body parts were in Duckfat at any point in time. 

Offline Ghandi

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #55 on: Saturday, February 12, 2011, 01:18:07 AM »
I'm sort of scared to check and see if AllOutGames is as hilariously gay as it was years ago after we left. I'm appointing Ren to go and check for us.

Offline ren

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #56 on: Saturday, February 12, 2011, 06:45:46 AM »
AllOutGames gives a Bandwith Limit Exceeded warning and homomojo is now for sale by godaddy. Big surprise.

Offline angrykeebler

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #57 on: Saturday, February 12, 2011, 03:27:29 PM »
remember when Ghandi was Gandalf




because i do




neva fo'get
Suck it, Pugnate.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #58 on: Saturday, February 12, 2011, 03:53:12 PM »
And Ren was Renegade... and Schlotzky5 wasn't so straight.

Good times.

Offline idolminds

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #59 on: Saturday, February 12, 2011, 04:23:10 PM »
Ren is still 12, though.

Offline ren

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #60 on: Saturday, February 12, 2011, 04:28:24 PM »
Just the thought of posting on forums at the age of 12 seems completely bizarre now.

Offline Ghandi

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #61 on: Saturday, February 12, 2011, 07:27:35 PM »
remember when Ghandi was Gandalf




because i do




neva fo'get

Remember how Keebs has slanty eyes

because I do

neva fo'get

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #62 on: Sunday, February 13, 2011, 02:33:56 AM »
I never asked this, but how the hell did that happen? How did a 12 year old get involved with us?

WAIT I WAS 18 AT THE TIME! ZOMGS!!!!!!!

Offline angrykeebler

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #63 on: Sunday, February 13, 2011, 02:34:43 PM »
yeah back when i first started posting on IGN i was like 18...now im 29


sigh
Suck it, Pugnate.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #64 on: Sunday, February 13, 2011, 02:49:28 PM »
I think this thread is far more interesting now. I think Cobra should come back.


Offline angrykeebler

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #65 on: Sunday, February 13, 2011, 03:48:49 PM »
I don't think so. He'll just see our vibrant and carefee youth and become way more angry.
Suck it, Pugnate.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #66 on: Sunday, February 13, 2011, 05:17:23 PM »
The gods may have cursed you with chinaman but they granted you humorous speech.

Come join my party slanty eye. You may be funny looking, but your high charisma will grant +4 to our party's spirit, when we make battle with the nitro penile trolls from the lands of Canada.

Offline bullshark

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #67 on: Sunday, February 13, 2011, 10:22:22 PM »
My British friends think it's weird that I say "asians" when I'm speaking of people from the far east.  They call people from the far east "oriental" whereas "asian" is the term for people of the subcontinent.  I explained that in the US many people think using the term oriental is derogatory and that just totally threw them off.

Offline Ghandi

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #68 on: Sunday, February 13, 2011, 10:38:01 PM »
Actually Bullshark, I can shed some light on this issue, as I live in the United States. The correct nomenclature here is "Slanty eyed bastard".

Offline angrykeebler

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #69 on: Sunday, February 13, 2011, 11:55:36 PM »
The gods may have cursed you with chinaman but they granted you humorous speech.

Come join my party slanty eye. You may be funny looking, but your high charisma will grant +4 to our party's spirit, when we make battle with the nitro penile trolls from the lands of Canada.

Don't forget about my +5 to Math bonus.
Suck it, Pugnate.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #70 on: Monday, February 14, 2011, 01:20:56 AM »
My British friends think it's weird that I say "asians" when I'm speaking of people from the far east.  They call people from the far east "oriental" whereas "asian" is the term for people of the subcontinent.  I explained that in the US many people think using the term oriental is derogatory and that just totally threw them off.

haha exactly.

This is what would happen when I'd refer myself as Asian to Canadians/Americans.

They would say... well, you don't look so good at math.

Don't forget about my +5 to Math bonus.

Why I shouldn't be posting at 5:30 am.

Offline Cools!

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #71 on: Monday, February 14, 2011, 09:22:56 PM »
You asked if I specifically would want to live near a mosque, and I told you it wouldn't bother me.  I can't and won't speak for anyone else.  If they're so easily swayed by media to believe there's no such thing as a good Muslim then they are ignorant or dumb.  Maybe both.

Not all of us share the "Larry the Cable Guy" outlook on the Muslim population.

I mean come on, a number of Muslims in Egypt put themselves in danger recently to essentially be a meat shield for Christians wishing to hold services.  I guarantee you Glenn Beck didn't mention that on-air.

Just to clarify, my reply was to ren, not you specifically.

Offline ren

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #72 on: Tuesday, February 15, 2011, 05:00:54 AM »
I would like to add that I live next door to a Filipino church and am very disappointed by the lack of Filipino restaurants in the area. If you're not going to let me eat your food, why even come?

Offline Cools!

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #73 on: Tuesday, February 15, 2011, 01:54:31 PM »
Hahaha

Offline gpw11

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #74 on: Tuesday, February 15, 2011, 08:42:17 PM »
Do they eat food?  Why the fuck are they so small?

Offline angrykeebler

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #75 on: Friday, February 18, 2011, 05:09:14 PM »
have you guys ever had lumpia because IT IS THE BEST
Suck it, Pugnate.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #76 on: Friday, February 18, 2011, 06:39:27 PM »
Dude, I had a Filipino coworker who used to make it sometimes, I'd eat freaking mounds of it.  She was an awesome cook.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Ground zero mosque
« Reply #77 on: Saturday, February 19, 2011, 02:18:30 AM »
You know what the best thing about hot Filipino is? They are very light weight.