Author Topic: Life  (Read 34825 times)

Offline Ghandi

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Re: Life
« Reply #40 on: Saturday, December 16, 2006, 12:49:44 AM »
I believe in a heaven and hell, but not in the physical sense. When we die, we become self-actualized. If we have done good in our lives, we are actualized towards this good, and thus in a state of peace and happiness. If we have done bad things in our lives, we are actualized accordingly, and are in a state of hell as to our bad deeds in life.

I also believe that the theory of time is the biggest misconception of the entire human civilization. This idea of linear progression and the constraints it enacts upon us are insane, including in the debate of science and religion. I believe both the scientific explanation for the creation of the earth and the religious, 6-day explanation. Time is elastic.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Life
« Reply #41 on: Saturday, December 16, 2006, 03:17:07 PM »
I have a very different view of time.  To me, it's an abstract concept, rather than anything physical.  We need time to explain to ourselves why everything doesn't happen at once.  But I don't believe you can manipulate time directly like some sort of road between two cities any more than you can climb beauty.

Offline ren

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Re: Life
« Reply #42 on: Saturday, December 16, 2006, 07:01:40 PM »
I am what I am, and that's all I'll ever be.

I believe in religion, evolution and atheism in the same way that I view a fantasy world like LOTR. It's interesting to read about, interesting to think about, but in the end, it really doesn't define who I am. How we got on this world, what our purpose is, what happens once we die is neither here nor there. I don't need to see my place in the world. My place is defined by my family, friends, and anybody else I interact with.

Offline Xessive

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Re: Life
« Reply #43 on: Sunday, December 17, 2006, 03:15:26 PM »
I've come to accept the plausibility that Time is a property of matter. Its perception is variable.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Life
« Reply #44 on: Sunday, December 17, 2006, 04:20:09 PM »
I've come to accept that we all get fucking old and die, so it really doesn't matter.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline Xessive

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Re: Life
« Reply #45 on: Sunday, December 17, 2006, 08:41:28 PM »
I've come to accept that we all get fucking old and die, so it really doesn't matter.
Well that is the inevitable ;D So we oughta make the most of what time we got before we wither away :)

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Life
« Reply #46 on: Sunday, December 17, 2006, 11:20:09 PM »
I am just wondering why everyone knocks religion so easily? Are we that smart now that we figured it is a hoax? Or maybe we haven't begun to understand?

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Life
« Reply #47 on: Monday, December 18, 2006, 11:11:56 AM »
I don't call it a hoax.  I simply don't know.  My take is that I don't know, and can't know about that plane of existence, if it's there.  Here's what will get me in trouble:  By extension, I also believe that no other human being can know either, without direct contact with that plane of existence.  Without some deity springing up before you and imparting some of its knowledge to you, all you can have is blind faith in what amounts to hearsay.

I don't judge based on religion.  I demand the same courtesy in return.  If everyone followed these rules, we'd be in much better place.

Offline idolminds

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Re: Life
« Reply #48 on: Monday, December 18, 2006, 11:33:47 AM »
You know what makes me smile? That if God had decided to drop another Jesus on us, or is speaking through a person here on earth...that person is most likely sitting in an asylum right now.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Life
« Reply #49 on: Monday, December 18, 2006, 08:19:59 PM »
The problem is that if any deity got up and talked to anyone with that attitude, Cobra, that person would never believe them anyway.  I'm not trying to attack your position, I'm just saying that I don't think a person who doesn't want to believe in anything ever will because they've already thrown the possibility out the window.  We have the inspired word of God in the Bible, but nobody wants to believe *that*.  If a magical-looking entity of bright shiny light came up out of the ground and took you to another plane of existence and said, "This is it, my friend.  This is what you wondered about," how would that be any more convincing?  I don't think anybody *that* focused on attempting to rationalize all elements of life would even be able to comprehend the experience, and would either make up an excuse to get away from it ("Man, that indigestion I got sure made me go nuts that night!") or they would just lose their mind.

Belief is necessity.  This life is a horrible one in many ways, and I don't think any of us can look at ourselves and say that there isn't something missing, some piece we just haven't been able to attain.  If that wasn't true, nobody would ever desire anything and we'd have simple bliss.  We'd never want to read fiction.  We'd never feel the need to enjoy other worlds in games that make us feel like we can get away from this one.  The Buddhists have it right when they say that desire is suffering: we desire what we don't have, we suffer because of that lack, and if we free ourselves from desire we can free ourselves from suffering.  It's obscenely logical, and when you get down to it, a lot of that isn't so different from the Christian approach.  Buddhism is a much more humanity-oriented religion as opposed to a heavenly-oriented one, but Christians and Buddhists can both likely agree that Western society is really geared toward the fulfillment of desire, the flaw being that no matter how many desires you fill, another will always pop up in its place.

Why do I mention this?  Because I think it speaks to the kind of people we can be.  Lots of people focus on lots of different things in trying to fulfill their areas of perceived need, but I think what a lot of it comes down to is that we feel there needs to be something *more*.  Some of us pursue it via religion, others do it through fiction, be they movies, games, or books.  For me, if I didn't believe in something beyond my day to day life, I would kill myself.  In a heartbeat.  My life is a long string of hardship and misery broken up mostly by the occasional good time spent with friends, or time spent creating things (music, poetry, art, whatever) that express my beliefs and feelings, or time spent enjoying things created by others that help me forget how stuck I am, how awful everything is, how my daily life is a fucking misery which makes me hate everyone around me more with every passing day.  If this is all that I believed life to be, I guarantee you I would kill myself.  That doesn't mean that I simply chose to believe in more because doing otherwise would end in disaster, it means I was actually willing to consider that other people might be right.  There were a number of times in my life when I was almost convinced that there was nothing out there and that life was utterly meaningless, that we were no better than animals.  I listened to those voices in society and I ended up deciding that they were wrong.  I came to this conclusion through personal experience and study, through looking at what I felt I'd learned in my life through interactions with other people, through knowledge, through the study of art and human expression, through the various religions I'd looked at, and through my study of history.  Maybe some of you have it so easy that you can actually say that even if life is meaningless, you're fine, but that's probably because you don't have any responsibility or burden that ties you to things that you hate.  Maybe my perspective would be different if that weren't the case for me, but I've been working pretty much full time since I was 16.  I graduated high school early and got thrown into doing the things that I hated most, and I had to because I wasn't good enough at or singly devoted enough to any of the things I loved in order to make money doing them.  My dad died and left little more than enough for my mother to exist on.  There wasn't enough money for me to pursue college, and I couldn't do it on my own like my sister was able to, God bless her.  So perspective might have something to do with it, but...

I don't know.  At this point I'm just going off on a tangent and I'm too tired to know if I even have a point.  I'm going to have a glass of wine and go the fuck to bed.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Life
« Reply #50 on: Monday, December 18, 2006, 08:22:12 PM »
You know what makes me smile? That if God had decided to drop another Jesus on us, or is speaking through a person here on earth...that person is most likely sitting in an asylum right now.

And I have to say, I fail to see why that would make you smile.  In other words, if there actually was a God and He was actually choosing to speak through someone, you think it's great that in our current society he would be cast off as a lunatic despite his grasp of spiritual truth?  The fact that something like that would make you smile is the most utterly depressing thing I've heard today.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Life
« Reply #51 on: Wednesday, December 20, 2006, 05:45:58 PM »
Belief is necessity.  This life is a horrible one in many ways, and I don't think any of us can look at ourselves and say that there isn't something missing, some piece we just haven't been able to attain.  If that wasn't true, nobody would ever desire anything and we'd have simple bliss.  . . .  The Buddhists have it right when they say that desire is suffering: we desire what we don't have, we suffer because of that lack, and if we free ourselves from desire we can free ourselves from suffering.  . . .

. . . I think what a lot of it comes down to is that we feel there needs to be something *more*.  Some of us pursue it via religion, others do it through fiction, be they movies, games, or books.  For me, if I didn't believe in something beyond my day to day life, I would kill myself.  In a heartbeat.  My life is a long string of hardship and misery broken up mostly by the occasional good time spent with friends, or time spent creating things (music, poetry, art, whatever) that express my beliefs and feelings, or time spent enjoying things created by others that help me forget how stuck I am, how awful everything is, how my daily life is a fucking misery which makes me hate everyone around me more with every passing day.  If this is all that I believed life to be, I guarantee you I would kill myself.  . . .  [But] I came to this conclusion [that there really is spirituality beyond what we can measure] through personal experience and study, through looking at what I felt I'd learned in my life through interactions with other people, through knowledge, through the study of art and human expression, through the various religions I'd looked at, and through my study of history.  . . .

(If I quoted you out of context in my heavy-handed treatment of your post, or made inaccurate assumptions inside my added square brackets, feel free to flog me now.  I tried to keep the essence of what you were saying intact.  The abbreviation is for my own understanding, not for winning any debates.  You did ramble a bit, you must admit.)

In a nutshell, you believe because you need to believe; however, other factors also convinced you about spirituality independently of your strong need to believe.  You don't know how much I wish I could reach the same conclusion.  I have a huge need to believe that my existence is much more than it seems to be.  Yet I cannot make the leap of faith that you have.  That's the root of the dilemma.  Did our species create God in its own image out of an unavoidable need to do so, or did God create us in his image, and imbue us with a need to believe in him?

That's not rhetorical.  To me, it's a very real, unanswered question.  I hope for the latter.  Hope is not faith, although both are considered virtues.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Life
« Reply #52 on: Wednesday, December 20, 2006, 09:10:11 PM »
I wish you and I could be better friends, Cobra.  As different as we are, there's so much we have in common.

Can I make a ridiculous suggestion?  Read Sylvie and Bruno, a children's novel in two parts written by Lewis Carroll (Charles Dodgson), the author of Alice in Wonderland.  It almost seems counterproductive to do this, as the whole thing seems to combine a sense of spirituality with that of total fantasy and such, which in my own life I feel are diametrically opposed to one another while still serving some of the same basic purposes, but I guess maybe that odd repel-and-attract relationship is what fascinates me about it.  I just find myself wondering what you might think reading it and whether or not you might be able to relate to it on certain levels.  It revolves around an older man and the adventures he watches and enjoys with two young children.  I really don't even know exactly why I'm suggesting it.  For some reason it just seems the proper thing to do.  And, after all, I'm crazy.  Unfortunately, it's a rather hard book to find, and I don't think there are even any current editions with the entire tale (only the first half).  I looked for it for *ages* for my sister and niece, but there's only one edition that I could find that's recent, and it isn't currently in print.  The only other option, really, is to get a compendium of Carroll's works (which I would heartily recommend anyhow).  You can usually find the entire thing in those.

Anyway, I'd say more, but if you haven't noticed from my angry and profanity-ridden posts of late, I'm just too mentally and emotionally exhausted for this subject right now.  Regardless, I always love reading your posts.  The last thing you said resonates with me.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Life
« Reply #53 on: Friday, December 22, 2006, 07:15:31 PM »
Dogpile was my friend once more.  I can't commit to reading through this just yet.  I'm back in NY now, spending Christmas with my kids, and then carrying through with the decision I've been agonizing over for a long time.  (I'm leaving.)  The crisis looms large.  After the dust settles, if it doesn't choke the life out of me, I'll try to devote some time to this.

I don't think we're all that different, Que.  Few people who meet randomly are going to share the same religious/moral ground.  Aside from that, what do we butt heads over?  Nothing major that I can think of.  On the other hand, we have so much in common in terms of what drives us, and what frustrates us.  I'm glad to have you as a friend, even if we only get together here.

Edit:  I take it that this is Part 2?

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Life
« Reply #54 on: Friday, December 22, 2006, 10:04:35 PM »
The feeling is mutual.

And yes, that's part 2.  I actually almost started reading it again today, but I ended up working on some poetry instead.  I've really been needing something to calm my nerves (if you can't tell from the fact that every other word I've been posting here has been some form of profanity lately), and that story always does it for me.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Life
« Reply #55 on: Sunday, December 24, 2006, 03:25:36 AM »
In other news, I would sacrifice women and children to dark gods to obtain these first editions.  It's a good thing I'm married, otherwise that money would already be spent.

Oh god, why am I married...

Signed by the author?  Life isn't fair... it just isn't fair...

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野