Author Topic: Trump is now president  (Read 22885 times)

Offline scottws

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #40 on: Saturday, January 07, 2017, 05:27:51 AM »
Here's an article from the NYT about Trump and the Republicans erasing every last bit of Obama's legacy and why that doesn't really make sense.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/01/06/opinion/erasing-obama.html?referer=

Offline Cools!

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #41 on: Tuesday, January 10, 2017, 10:55:53 PM »

Offline idolminds

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #42 on: Wednesday, January 11, 2017, 10:27:36 PM »
After todays press conference....yeah, we are so fucked.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #43 on: Wednesday, January 11, 2017, 10:42:03 PM »
Concur. What a shitshow.

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Offline scottws

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #44 on: Thursday, January 12, 2017, 09:32:11 AM »
I just don't get why he focuses on such stupid stuff.  Imagine if Obama got all bent out of shape and sidetracked when someone said something bad about him...

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #45 on: Thursday, January 12, 2017, 10:45:24 AM »
I agree.  Someone needs to advise him on that.  (Maybe they already have, but he's too stubborn to listen.)  He's not campaigning anymore, but he still acts like it too often.  When he isn't going off on some tirade against CNN or whoever, what he says is not usually out of line with the conservative ideology--which should be no surprise to anyone.  The one real surprise, which he reiterated in the press conference, is his stance against companies moving production out of the country.  He threatened a stiff border tax to back that up.  One automaker reportedly changed their minds about opening a plant in Mexico as a result.  This is not a typical pro-business Republican position.  I've been advocating tax-based punitive measures against outsourcing for a very long time, and it's ironic that a Republican president is the first to follow that tack.  I voted for Obama in '08 expecting action along those lines, which of course never happened.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #46 on: Thursday, January 12, 2017, 12:48:02 PM »
Was that something that actually happened, or another thing he took credit for when the company had already changed plans of its own accord? I don't disagree with you on the potential usefulness of punitive tax measures, but most of Trump's ideology so far has been exactly the opposite tack.

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I think deserves to be posted: www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-press-conference-folders-business-plan-empire-blank-fake-handover-donald-jr-eric-a7523426.html

I spent 10 years working in a government office packed with lawyers dealing with court orders, judicial records, and other legal documents, and my job before that was running an engineering printer for United Airlines that printed literally thousands of pages of engineering documents every morning. Literally the first thing I thought during the conference when somebody got a shot of the pile of papers was, "Those are props with nothing printed on them." They didn't even look like what freshly-printed papers look like. And then they didn't let anyone look at them, making the entire gesture worthless.

I was also astounded that he left multiple questions totally unanswered, and retreated unceremoniously to let his lawyer do half the talking for him in the first press conference he's given in ... I don't know, what's it been? Six months? And he lambasted Clinton for not having a press conference for 150 days, or whatever it was, and here he goes and does the same thing, then basically gets onstage to tell the American people he has no regard for governmental ethics. Cool.

Suppose it's to be expected given that Tillerson and company have been doing the same thing throughout their confirmation hearings.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline scottws

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #47 on: Monday, January 16, 2017, 08:48:52 AM »
Check out @realDonaldTrump's Tweet: https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/820764134857969666?s=09

This guy is going to be our President in a few days.

Offline idolminds

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #48 on: Monday, January 16, 2017, 04:00:19 PM »
I'm glad he is keeping us up to date on the important issues facing this country, such as his opinions on the quality of modern SNL.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #49 on: Wednesday, January 25, 2017, 12:44:35 AM »
Quick summary of recent stuff that concerns me:

Trump has started the process of ramming through the Keystone XL and Dakota Access pipelines by signing an executive order, has put hiring freezes in place for NPS, told multiple public agencies to stop communicating with the public and press, and apparently they're now gearing up for talks of ending the Syrian refugee program and suspending Muslim majority country visas. He also has apparently completely ignored multiple governors reaching out for help after a big batch of storms/tornadoes that have ravaged large portions of the southeast. He then tweeted his intention to "send in the Feds" if "Chicago doesn't fix the horrible 'carnage' going on.'" So ignores requests for help while threatening to send either the National Guard or army into a US city to institute, presumably, martial law.

Oh, and while this is unconfirmed, a source on the transition team supposedly said that there are plans to eliminate the National Endowment for the Arts and National Endowment for the Humanities, which largely fund NPR and PBS.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline idolminds

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #50 on: Wednesday, January 25, 2017, 08:47:03 AM »
He pushed a couple tweets this morning:

Quote
I will be asking for a major investigation into VOTER FRAUD, including those registered to vote in two states, those who are illegal and....

even, those registered to vote who are dead (and many for a long time). Depending on results, we will strengthen up voting procedures!

He has convinced himself that he actually won the popular vote but there were millions of illegal votes so it doesn't look like it. So now hes going to waste taxpayer money on trying to prove a lie to protect his ego. And since hes fine with lying it wouldn't surprise me if they go ahead and disenfranchise millions to make it "true".

It's continually amazing how thin skinned he is. He WON the election but still isn't happy with the result, because he didn't win the popular vote. Thats all that matters to him, popularity. It's why hes lying about the size of the crowd at the inauguration. It must be eating him alive knowing that and he has the lowest approval rating of any recent president taking office. And its only downhill from here.

EDIT: Important to remember that Trump's lawyers argued in court that there was no voter fraud in challenging Stein's recounts.

EDIT2: Just in case you weren't convinced everything is about his ego.
« Last Edit: Wednesday, January 25, 2017, 09:21:04 AM by idolminds »

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #51 on: Wednesday, January 25, 2017, 09:42:45 AM »
I'm a bit puzzled about that last link.  It's just a collection of other links (not surprisingly favorable, given they're coming from the White House).

The question of illegals voting has not really been addressed satisfactorily by anyone.  In a fair number of states, particularly liberal ones, asking for voters to identify themselves credibly is seen as an affront to civil rights.  I strongly advocate subsidized national IDs for anyone who can't afford the traditional methods of such identification.  What I can't get behind is letting anyone walk up to a polling place, claim to be John Doe, American citizen and state resident, and getting a voting ballot without question.

My sister works with illegals in her state's school system.  She tells some alarming stories of these people bragging about having voted.  Anecdotal, to be sure, but not hard at all to swallow when one considers the practically nonexistent ID requirements, and the large concentrations of illegals in certain states.

Edit:  I'm not advocating the investigation of this particular election.  We live in a representative republic consisting of 50 states, not a flat democracy like ancient Greece.  The election results are amply clear, with or without the popular vote.  But we do need to make sure that no one is using the Voting Rights Act as a cloak to hide fraudulent votes.
« Last Edit: Wednesday, January 25, 2017, 10:03:08 AM by Cobra951 »

Offline scottws

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #52 on: Wednesday, January 25, 2017, 10:38:53 AM »
I don't have much to say about Trump at this point. It's clear he's an extremely thin-skinned narcissist that has a penchant for passing off easily verifiable falsehoods as facts.  On top of that, he is playing a strategy where he is trying to completely control the messaging in such a manner that it smacks of something straight out of 1984.  Any hope I have that he'll get over himself, be the President, and just focus on policy and being the leader of America is fading rapidly. 

Regarding the voting issues, IIRC, there have been several studies of voter fraud.  The findings are that voter fraud does exist, but it is such an infinitesimally small portion so as to basically be a problem not worth further time and effort.  Check out the John Oliver episode about it.  Additionally, many studies of voter ID laws show that they target the poor and minorities with almost laser precision.  Most of these laws claim to be about curbing voter fraud, but really they are just about suppressing voters that are more likely to vote for Democrats.  This is a very good starting point.

It really makes sense when you look at the whole picture.  The Republican party has been making moves for a long time now to consolidate their position from gerrymandering to reducing the powers of other parts of government that they don't control to crafting voter ID laws that hurt their opponents' chances.  Frankly, I'm also inclined to believe that the Republican party has been committing a long time war on education in order to craft a less educated, more ignorant populace and also seeding distrust in the media in order to stand up "alternative messaging" that they have complete control of.  Combined, these things could create a large portion of the populace that is easily swayed to believe things that are false.  This, combined with their consolidated position and attempts to stack the deck against their opponents makes them formidable.

Just look at it.  Forget the social issues for a moment and just look at what Republicans do and say they want to do.  They are the party of the wealthy and big business.  Almost everything they do is for them at the expense of the general citizenry and the lower and middle classes.  Their policies on the environment reflect a concern about the effect of environmental controls on the bottom line of corporations.  Their policies on regulations favor corporations over citizens and consumers at every turn.  Given how many people actually benefit from such policies vs. how many are harmed by them, how do they even get elected?  By stacking the deck when they have the opportunities, creating distrust in the truth, and through propaganda.

I used to think I might have my tin foil hat on a little tight but given what we've seen over the last year, I'm not sure that it's very far-fetched at all.
« Last Edit: Wednesday, January 25, 2017, 11:00:40 AM by scottws »

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #53 on: Wednesday, January 25, 2017, 06:20:44 PM »
The trends have to some degree been visible, but now they're glaringly obvious. You can tell a lot about a person or party from what they do when suddenly given free reign after a period of resistance or inability. The Republicans have shown their hand here. I'm speaking of the actual politicians here, of course, and not the voting populace, which I think is increasingly being thrown into confusion as they're continuously thrown to the wolves, a few loudmouthed Trumpers notwithstanding. Whatever doubt there may have been before about Republican intentions (and there was some, even for me as an independent), these actions really can't be read any other way by an educated person: we aren't even going to throw you a bone, unless you count a lie or two to placate you, and we don't give a shit about what you think so long as we control you and how you spend your money. Ethics mean nothing to these people. Human rights mean nothing. And the useless Democratic party continues to twiddle its thumbs while refusing to pull its collective head out of its collective ass (again, the politicians, not the people; I've seen more Democrats furious with their party than I ever have in my life).

It's a mess, and getting worse by the minute.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #54 on: Wednesday, January 25, 2017, 10:10:37 PM »
I don't have much to say about Trump at this point. It's clear he's an extremely thin-skinned narcissist that has a penchant for passing off easily verifiable falsehoods as facts.  On top of that, he is playing a strategy where he is trying to completely control the messaging in such a manner that it smacks of something straight out of 1984Any hope I have that he'll get over himself, be the President, and just focus on policy and being the leader of America is fading rapidly. 

I thought that was funny.


Regarding the voting issues, IIRC, there have been several studies of voter fraud.  The findings are that voter fraud does exist, but it is such an infinitesimally small portion so as to basically be a problem not worth further time and effort.

My brother Tony and I have had the same conversation, and he made the same argument.  Problem is it doesn't wash.  It's a simple matter of logic and understanding human nature.  If you put a neon sign over your house reading "All friendlies welcome", then you leave your door not only unlocked but wide open, leave the lights on, then go on vacation, studies showing low crime in your neighborhood won't keep the place from getting ransacked.

The ID problem can be solved.  But this is a dogmatic issue for the left, with the power and closed-mindedness of religion (like too much of our current politics in general).  Even suggesting that everyone needs to carry valid ID is heresy, which would be met with indignant accusations.  As I said before, I am all for subsidizing IDs for the poor, to dispel the notion that it has anything to do with race, class, ethnicity, or party affiliation.  Few will listen that far.

The saddest thing is that at this moment everyone is entrenched in a hostile stance.  No one will budge.  Each side has declared war on the other, and there is no room for agreement, only for victory or defeat.  The press as a whole are completely untrustworthy.  Everything I read smacks of partisan propaganda.  The left in particular can't seem to accept that their way of thinking is not the only one, or that they resoundingly lost in November.  They are doing everything in their power to delegitimize the duly elected administration of this country, and their tendrils extend deep into the dominant media machine.   I don't know who to trust, so I trust no one.  Maybe we should all study Yugoslavia to remind ourselves of how bad this kind of rift can get.

Offline scottws

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #55 on: Thursday, January 26, 2017, 03:36:38 AM »
I'm all for solving the voter fraud issue if it was a problem actually worth solving. Did you read any of the information I linked? Don't you find it just a little bit ironic that one of the people at the forefront of the voter fraud issue shamelessly commits voter fraud themselves in their statehouse?

Presented with such evidence, I don't see how anyone could truly maintain the issue is anything other than another Republican power play.

Regarding your statement of the divide formed in this country, it really goes back to what I said about the right playing the long game.  They have made moves that harm education, increased messaging that creates distrust in the media, and stood up alternative messaging. When a huge group of people has been taught to deny truths out of hand and presented with "alternative facts" (read: compete lies), this is the result.

I know this is anecdotal, but I find it tough to have good conversations and debates these days with people that lean right. Over the last year, out of all the people I spoke to, literally only three people could express rational right-leaning thoughts that were conducive to any sort of useful debate. You are one of them. The rest?  Their statements are nothing but pure ignorance laced with phrases like "Obama is the Antichrist", "Crooked Hillary", "Shillary", "libtard", "pussification", etc.  They parrot the bullshit hocked by such balanced news sources as Conservative News, To Be A liberal Is To Be a Hypocrite, Breitbart, InfoWars, and RT of all fucking places. 

In the face of Donald Trump's constant and clear lies, they say "Yeah well Madonna said she wanted to blow up the White House!", somehow ignoring that she is a has-been pop artist from the 80's while Trump is the President of the United States right now. Perhaps one should be held to the higher standard than the other? It doesn't seem that people think that way anymore. It's not about holding our leaders accountable anymore, even when they are otherwise on your side.

It's not like I'm completely wrapped in a leftist bubble either. My mother is staunchly Republican. A close family friend is basically Tea Party, if there is still such a thing. Most of fiancee's family are also extremely conservative. I make an effort to read right-leaning news sources such as The Hill and Fox News.  I'm just not impressed with the level of discourse coming from the right these days beyond all the policy issues I disagree with. It all just smacks of demagoguery.
« Last Edit: Thursday, January 26, 2017, 04:06:38 AM by scottws »

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #56 on: Thursday, January 26, 2017, 07:03:37 AM »
This is good.  What you just said cuts to the heart of the divide, as illustrated in our own microcosm.  What you see on the right is what I see on the left--a steady stream of long-view attempts to normalize a social agenda, as if it were the only correct model for a free society.  This agenda is ensconced in identity politics, where race and gender matter more than merit, and where dissent is tantamount to fascism.

I'm about to turn 63, in exactly a month.  From the perspective of our little group here, I've been around for a very long time.  This doesn't give me an edge on intelligence or even wisdom; but it certainly does on experience and the long view.  I've been observing the dramatic, if slow changes in the country since 1970.  It's not a pretty picture.  To be sure, nothing was ever as rosy as I pictured it in my late teens and early 20s.  The erosion of our values and economic well-being are very real, however, particularly since the 80s.  The past eight years have given the left practically free rein to advance their views, and become ever more entrenched in them.  Now that their slant is being seriously opposed in all this time, they are acting like resistance in an occupied country.  Have they lost the capacity to understand what is relative and what is absolute?

No one can deny that Trump is a strange bird.  That he rose to the top in the electoral process goes to show how horrid the political establishment has become.  Out of all of those candidates that duked it out last year, he was the only one who spoke directly and unequivocally to the plight of the country.  No political insider has the guts to pursue action that runs afoul of identity politics, even when such action is sorely needed.  Trump clearly isn't groomed in CYA-speak.  Maybe he'll get better at it.  Or maybe he'll continue to think he can do whatever he wants for a while.  I don't care.  We clearly need a real leader now, and I'm not too concerned about the people who want to trip him up so badly succeeding at it now and then, as long as he actually pursues effective courses of action where they must be.  My post under the banner of Guy Fawkes covers those.

If he does go too far, there is always impeachment.  I don't see that ever happening.  We'll see what the future brings.

Offline scottws

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #57 on: Thursday, January 26, 2017, 07:48:11 AM »
I think the big reason for differences of opinion between you and I is merely that the things we consider important are different.

The economic hardship that some are complaining about doesn't affect anyone I know.  In fact, everyone in my family and social circle are living middle or upper-middle class lives.  From where I sit, the economy is actually on a tear and there are tons of jobs available.  We're actually having a hard time filling positions at work.

Regarding blue collar jobs, I do think tariffs will help a little bit in the short term but it's important to keep in mind that automation is eliminating as many or more such jobs as offshoring is and has.  Just look at garbage collection.  If anything, there is more garbage to be collected nowadays but instead of three guys on a truck (one driving and two hanging off the back) it is now just one guy driving and operating a remote arm.  Automation in the form of machine learning and AI will start taking over white collar jobs within the next decade.

On one hand automation helps increase productivity and decrease costs but there is a tipping point.  Eventually, we'll have so many unemployed that there is going to be a sharp rise in crime and/or a drain on social programs.  This is going to be a huge problem, probably in my lifetime.  Border tariffs will be ineffective when that time comes.  I wish I knew the solution.

Republicans love to act like they care for the blue collar worker these days, but their policies don't really bear this out.  They continue to reduce the power of unions that used to fight for wages and benefits and are doing nothing to stem the rise of the extreme wage inequality that has been going on the last 20 years.  They remove "burdensome" regulations to reduce the costs businesses suffer, but these same businesses just line the pockets of their executives with the excess and then outsource or automate their low and middle-skill positions.  We already know that what Republican politicians used to call trickle-down economics don't have the intended result, yet they keep doing pushing these sorts of policies.  It doesn't work.  And it doesn't have anything to do with how hard someone works.  Not really.

Regarding social issues and identity politics, I'm inclined to agree to a certain extent.  People are people.  If anything, identity is a regional thing now rather than racial or sexist.  That said, we do still have a ton of identity issues we're dealing with in this country.  I think the Black Lives Matter movement is indicative of that.  But I don't think it's useful any longer for politicians, especially Democrats, to base policies on identity.  It's what burned them so bad in 2016.

The issues that I think are most important are public health and education.  The Republican positions here are both pretty dismal, IMO.  Now, don't get me wrong, I'm a believer in private education and non-free college; I just think that public education offerings from K - 12 should be robust.  It ends up benefiting us all.  It has the ability to create people that can better contribute to society from an intellectual, artistic, and economic standpoint.  It (should) also have the secondary effects of reduction in certain types of crime and a reduction in the need for large social welfare programs.

Instead, what Republicans like to do is point out the poor performance of our public schools as a reason to reduce funding (why throw good money after bad, right?).  But then they again point at the lackluster state of public education that inevitably results and further reduce the resources available.  Repeat ad infinitum.  Is anyone surprised at the result?

Public health is a thornier issue, but I don't believe that a person's health should be a for-profit endeavor.  This has already created a ton of situations where a bunch of diseases that otherwise might be cured are instead chronic conditions that require lifetime treatment because the economic incentive for health care and pharmaceutical providers is to treat rather than to cure.  It's tough though because there is no way to force people to live healthy lifestyles.  You can't effectively make people not smoke or drink, for example, and the people that don't end up subsidizing those that do.  Of course, on the flip side, we already are doing that in our current health care insurance system so I don't see what the big deal is.

Edit: I just wanted to add something in your response to the "erosion of our values" comment.  To me, values are a familial thing.  It's your parents' and maybe religion's job to teach you a value system.  Nothing really stops you from having your own values, though I suppose societal pressures could create issues for people whose values become increasingly niche and ostracized.  People don't want their values legislated onto them.  To me, legislators imposing some sort of Christian value system via law is not at all different than a Middle Eastern regime imposing sharia law.  Now, I can already see a right wing reader to this comment saying "but the left has been trying to impose their values on everyone for decades!"  But have they?  If a law allowing for abortion is passed, is it suddenly illegal to be pro-life?  Pretty sure no one is going to force abortions on anyone.  Pretty sure a pro-life woman is still allowed to believe abortions are wrong.  Everyone is free to practice their own value system, societal pressures notwithstanding.

Also, from where I sit, I don't understand how someone focused on values would choose Donald Trump as a candidate.  If erosion of values is a major concern, isn't he basically the polar opposite of the type of leader you would want?

Edit 2: Regarding your comment about the left acting like resistance in an occupied country... I'm not sure that's fair.  That's not to say I don't understand why you said it, but I think you just lack some perspective.  Take it from me, most people on the left are still in downright shock that DJT is our President.  Que and I both used the phrase "worst possible outcome" to describe Trump's election.  I still believe it.  Someone like Paul Ryan, Rand Paul, John Kaisich... I wouldn't have loved it, of course, but I could handle it.  DJT?  To me it's like an own-goal in soccer.  It's like blowing up our own country.  Time will tell, but I am not encouraged by what I've seen so far.

Additionally, you have to keep in mind that there is clearly a wide spectrum of beliefs in this country.  And now you have basically just one side of those beliefs in complete control of the federal government and in control of a large majority of state governments.  Even in the first half of Obama's first term, Dems only had control of the Presidency and Congress, not the Supreme Court, and then they never had Congressional majority in either house after that.  So I don't want to hear about how the left has just had the run of the place for the last 40 years.  That's plainly false.

Lastly, DJT lost the popular vote.  I totally understand that the Electoral College is how Presidents are elected and there is no question that DJT won there.  But think about it like this: the candidate that less people overall picked ended up winning and, on top of that, this granted complete control of the government to basically one set of viewpoints.  People like me are thinking this: the will of a minority of people is going to have a massive negative impact on me, the future of America, and the future of the human race.

So when you find yourself confounded why people don't just accept the results of the election and quiet down, consider these things, because that's what "the resistance" is all about.
« Last Edit: Thursday, January 26, 2017, 10:59:32 AM by scottws »

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #58 on: Thursday, January 26, 2017, 10:51:46 AM »
By values I don't mean Christianity, though the non-zealot forms of Christianity are a positive moralizing influence.  I mean things like work ethic, decency, the family unit, and generally law-abiding behavior.  I could turn the question around on you, and ask how could anyone with any values vote for Hilary Clinton.

Rotten fish, gamey bird, or starve.  We had to make a choice.  You know?

As for public health, Step 1 today is to trash the horror that is the (so-called) "Affordable Care Act".  What the Republicans are saying about is not just propaganda.  I personally know people in Southeast Indiana who are worse off now than ever because of it.  The worst example is this one lady who had no insurance before, and now is forced by law to pay $400 a month for health insurance with a $4000-a-year deductible.  So she gets a $4800 hit on her yearly income, making healthcare even harder to afford because of the high deductible.  Tell me how exactly this helps public health?  It may help the completely destitute.  Poor people with some income are a different story.

Let me give you another example: me.  I don't work, but I am not a drain on society.  Private means support me.  However, I can't under any circumstances afford health insurance.  I also don't qualify for heavily subsidized Obamacare because my imputed income is the household income, even though it isn't my house.  (I don't rent here; I just live here, in the family home.)  In order for me to get free healthcare, I'd have to move into a shack somewhere, and become a drain on society.  The new healthcare law now also means that I cannot be claimed as a dependent, because if I were, the home owner would have to provide me with health insurance, or pay a severe tax penalty.

Short take: I and my family are significantly worse off because of Obamacare--and I still have to pay for healthcare out of pocket.  How do you think we're going to feel when it comes time to vote?

Offline scottws

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #59 on: Thursday, January 26, 2017, 11:24:37 AM »
I hear you on the ACA.  It does have many problems.  But, frankly, blame the Republicans.  The left has wanted public, single-payer system since at least Bill Clinton.  It's the Republicans that turned Obama's and both Clintons' vision into the what we have with the ACA today.  Everyone calls it "Obamacare", but it's actually closer to what Mitt Romney did in Massachusetts.

Personally, I think we either need to go away from the whole employer-based healthcare system and go to a much more competitive private market or go full single-payer.

Regarding HRC vs. DJT, it was admittedly a pretty horrible choice.  That said, I don't believe they were equally horrible.  I'm not sure it's worth belaboring this particular point; I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.  I've already made my feelings on DJT pretty clear.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #60 on: Thursday, January 26, 2017, 02:43:20 PM »
I wholly agree about the horrible compromise on the healthcare law.  It should have simply been killed, rather than turning it into something worse than nothing.  And I did (and still do) want the same style of single-payer system enjoyed by the rest of the first world.  Fat chance of that happening under Republicans, I know.  But I'd much rather go back to where we were before Obama than to let the ACA do more damage.

Edit:
So I don't want to hear about how the left has just had the run of the place for the last 40 years.  That's plainly false."

. . .

 DJT lost the popular vote.  I totally understand that the Electoral College is how Presidents are elected and there is no question that DJT won there.  But think about it like this: the candidate that less people overall picked ended up winning and, on top of that, this granted complete control of the government to basically one set of viewpoints.  People like me are thinking this: the will of a minority of people is going to have a massive negative impact on me, the future of America, and the future of the human race.

Whoa!  8 years, not 40--though challenges to the political-correctness dogma have been few and far between in more like 30 years.

As I said, we're a representative republic comprised of 50 states.  If such a large nation is going to work out as a free society, you can't let a few huge population centers in even fewer states decide the outcome of presidential elections.  All you have to do is look at the islands of blue on the sea of red that was the USA on election day to understand what I'm saying.

There is a way to change the electoral process.  It's a Constitutional convention*, where a supermajority (3/4ths, I believe) of the states must ratify a proposed Constitutional amendment to change it.  Again, notice the emphasis on states, not population.  It's the way we've always been set up, and the only time someone thinks it's a bad idea is when they're on the losing end.  Understandable, but not persuasive for mucking around with the bedrock of our laws, principles and jurisprudence.

* Actually, a convention is not required, though it may be called for.  Regardless, 3/4ths of the states must ratify an amendment for approval.

https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/constitution

.
« Last Edit: Thursday, January 26, 2017, 03:08:01 PM by Cobra951 »

Offline scottws

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #61 on: Thursday, January 26, 2017, 03:22:51 PM »
Yeah, I'm familiar with what's required for changing the electoral process.  I know it sounds like sour grapes, but come on.  Considering that the Electoral College, concocted by Alexander Hamilton, was devised as a protection against populism and to ensure that a qualified candidate was selected, wouldn't you say that it failed its mission in 2016?  Not only did it not represent the will of most voters in this case (not that that was its purpose in any case), but it didn't even work as it was intended.

Whoa!  8 years, not 40--though challenges to the political-correctness dogma have been few and far between in more like 30 years.

The 40-year time span I was referring to was in response to this:  "I've been observing the dramatic, if slow changes in the country since 1970."  Even if you trim it down to the last eight years, that's false too.  The Democrats held only the Presidency of the three branches for six of those eight years, during which time jack all got accomplished due to Republican obstructionism in Congress.
« Last Edit: Thursday, January 26, 2017, 03:58:25 PM by scottws »

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #62 on: Friday, January 27, 2017, 06:59:55 AM »
No, it's not false at all.  The democrat party in particular has gone from the party of the people to the party of the left, of identity politics, of transfer payments, and generally of social agendas.  How ironic that the workers would now unite against them under the Republican banner, don't you think?  There are very good reasons for that, starting with the fact that democrats no longer represent them.  We didn't have a gridlocked Congress in 1970.  The ruling parties could actually speak to each other, and come to necessary agreements and compromises.

It doesn't matter why the Constitution was framed the way it was.  It's still the law of the land.  In this case, I happen to agree wholeheartedly with the setup, and I have explained why in some detail.  To pretend we live in one huge state would mean most of the country between the East and West coasts may as well not vote in presidential elections.  The founders knew they weren't perfect or clairvoyant, so they left us a way to amend the Constitution.  If changes are deemed necessary, they must go through that wisely difficult procedure.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #63 on: Sunday, January 29, 2017, 05:34:21 AM »

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #64 on: Sunday, January 29, 2017, 05:35:05 AM »

Offline Pugnate

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Offline scottws

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #66 on: Sunday, January 29, 2017, 09:08:01 AM »
No, it's not false at all.  The democrat party in particular has gone from the party of the people to the party of the left, of identity politics, of transfer payments, and generally of social agendas.  How ironic that the workers would now unite against them under the Republican banner, don't you think?  There are very good reasons for that, starting with the fact that democrats no longer represent them.  We didn't have a gridlocked Congress in 1970.  The ruling parties could actually speak to each other, and come to necessary agreements and compromises.

I'd agree that blue collar types are more likely to support Republicans, but that is not the same as the Republicans working for them. The support seems to be more about conservative social values than any economic policies, the latter of which almost exclusively harm the blue collar types.

I'd also go back to what I have already said about declining education and propaganda.

Offline iPPi

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #67 on: Sunday, January 29, 2017, 12:36:39 PM »
It's only been a week... and it is hard to fathom what is yet to come. 

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #68 on: Monday, January 30, 2017, 12:29:40 AM »
interesting...

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #69 on: Monday, January 30, 2017, 04:49:11 PM »


He transposed an 8 and a 4, saying 1948 when he should have probably said 1984 (at 06:32).  Other than that, I think this is spot-on.


Offline idolminds

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #70 on: Monday, January 30, 2017, 07:15:28 PM »
Sargon of Akkad video. No fucking thank you.

EDIT: I'm being dismissive because I've seen this guys shit before. Hes big in the gamergate/anti-feminism circles and I have zero patience for these angry white youtube "intellectuals".

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #71 on: Monday, January 30, 2017, 08:55:26 PM »
Don't know the guy.  I got there hopping across links from some of the chaos going on.  His main point here is that the left have completely lost their shit, and are acting like hysterical children.  If the left is ever to recover from the monumental rout here, in Britain, and an increasing fraction of Europe, it needs to reject the inflexible ideologues, and let the moderates take charge.  I thought his arguments were well thought out.

[snip]

Edit:  I'm going to take a step back.  There is too much fundamental division on this subject.  I won't comment further except to reply to comments or questions directed at me.  Sorry that I can't agree with the consensus here.  This group is important to me, much more than politics over which I have no control anyway.  I'll leave it there.
« Last Edit: Tuesday, January 31, 2017, 05:43:56 AM by Cobra951 »

Offline scottws

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #72 on: Tuesday, January 31, 2017, 11:41:00 AM »
"Monumental rout"? Don't you think that's a bit hyperbolic?  Although a bit less than expected, the Dems gained seats in both the House and Senate and while, yes, HRC lost the Electoral College vote, less people voted for DJT than HRC.  Also, the governorship switched to the Democrats in the Republican powerhouse, North Caroina.

"Rout" isn't a term I'd use to describe the Republican victory in 2016, much less use the adjective "monumental" in front of it.  Yet you seem to be saying that we should just give up and let the right have its way.

You know America has lost its way when someone like HRC is thought of as a leftist inflexible idealogue.  She's about as moderate as they come.  Hell, in some political environments, she'd be thought of as a conservative.

Anyway, yeah it's probably best we agree to disagree at this point.  You aren't going to convince me that DJT's election was a good thing and I'm probably not going to change your mind about anything either.  I've already made myself clear how I feel about pretty much everything and anything I wanted to convey to you to give you some additional perspective has already been conveyed.

That said, I could see myself using this thread in the future to illustrate aspects of Trump's presidency that I find worthy of comment, so I'm not promising that I will completely stop posting in this thread.  :)

Edit: I just noticed that the smileys are broken.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #73 on: Tuesday, January 31, 2017, 04:57:08 PM »
For what it's worth, I don't think any less of you for your perspective, Cobra, even though I disagree with it. I am a moderate, not a liberal, who was on the fence about which candidate was worse on the road up to the election. That began changing as the election drew closer, and there is no longer any question whatsoever given what's transpired in just the last week. Anyone who has spent any time studying world governments, and especially autocracies, despotisms, and all their close relatives, is terrified at what's happening in this country right now. As well they should be. I include myself in that category.

I have no qualms continuing to use the thread. My intention is never to offend anyone's political ideology. I fully understand why many voted for Trump, and why die-hard conservatives and liberals hold many of the values they do. But I definitely do not understand anyone who can't see what's happening now.

My summary to a friend of the events I noticed yesterday:

* 15 AGs standing up against travel ban.
* Quebec City shooter confirmed a hyperconservative Trump supporter despite damage-control spin by the right.
* People still being detained unlawfully and not allowed to see counsel despite federal court rulings. CBP telling attorneys to fuck off at Dulles even though attorneys have court orders entitling them to see detainees. Contempt orders are being sought.
* People being detained at airports have officially been asked if they love their country and if they are Christian. This is confirmed.
* Lots of tech companies came out and denounced the bans.
* Though Sessions nomination for AG vote was announced to be delayed, was supposed to happen today, I guess has been delayed until Wednesday? Republicans may now find themselves subjected to some of the stall tactics they utterly fucking abused over these last years. Highly advise you call your senators and demand they push back against Sessions. His track record shows him to be thoroughly unfit for office, along with basically every other Trump nominee.
* Lots more stuff came out about the bedlam at most governmental departments affected by the travel ban. In stark contrast to the WH "everything is fine" nonsense, everyone working in these departments was pissed off and saying no, everything is on fire. Apparently no warning. Similar story from airport and TSA people. DHS and State Dept. in turmoil.
* Jester Actual released a draft of the upcoming "Cyber Security" EO Trump had planned to sign today (did that happen? I just got home). Section 7d stated some interesting and scary shit about Secty of Defense and Secty of Homeland Security gathering and reviewing data from Dept of Education regarding math, science, etc.
* Military convoy with unmarked military vehicles bearing a Trump flag was seen driving down I-65 through Louisville yesterday morning. Pictures and video included, though of course that means less these days than it used to (though video remains reasonably compelling). Nobody in any event has any idea what the fuck that's about. Multiple government/military people were interviewed and were baffled. Hard to say if it's anything or not.

That's about all I have currently. But I'll leave this for your consideration:

https://twitter.com/RaRaVibes/status/826116204301516800

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline idolminds

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #74 on: Tuesday, January 31, 2017, 10:28:04 PM »
Hey sorry Cobra, I didn't mean to shit on the thread. After seeing that guys videos for...god, 2 and a half years now? it caught me by surprise seeing one posted here. I had a kneejerk reaction.

I guess we're all going to see how this pans out but my magic 8 ball says "outlook not so good".

Offline scottws

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #75 on: Sunday, February 05, 2017, 06:46:28 AM »
Well, I'm sure everyone is aware that the lunacy has continued. My favorite is the travel ban that was recently struck down. Not only have there been zero terrorist attacks in the U.S. from any of the banned countries sice 9/11, but DJT lashed out at the judge that struck down his ban by calling him a "so-called judge".  Hey Donald, guess what? Yes, he is an actual judge appointed by a previous President.

Here, I'll even post an article from a right wing news sources about it. Or is Fox News now also "mainstream media" that should be ignored?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/02/04/trump-lashes-out-at-travel-ban-ruling-by-so-called-judge.html

Offline Quemaqua

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« Last Edit: Sunday, February 05, 2017, 10:50:22 AM by Quemaqua »

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline scottws

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #77 on: Sunday, February 05, 2017, 03:32:10 PM »
The Dodd-Frank/fiduciary stuff really angers me. Repealing rules that require retirement advisors to act in the best interest of their clients? I don't even know ow what to say.

Offline scottws

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #78 on: Monday, February 06, 2017, 01:42:10 PM »
Tweet from DJT today:

"Any negative polls are fake news, just like the CNN, ABC, NBC polls in the election. Sorry, people want border security and extreme vetting."

"Any negative polls are fake news".  The POTUS said this.  Let that sink in.

Offline scottws

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Re: Trump is now president
« Reply #79 on: Friday, February 17, 2017, 04:27:47 AM »
In his press conference yesterday, Trump continued his assault on the media and on truth and facts. I'm just going to copy and paste what I said elsewhere.

So there was a press conference yesterday...

I just finished reading some comments on a Fox News article about Trump's press conference yesterday, and I'm pretty flabbergasted. Not all, but many of the commenters were thrilled with the conference and his undressing of the news media.

I find this terrifying! It means that Trump's plan to continually call into question the honesty of the news media is working, for some people. These people are now open to alternative sources of media that are complete fabrications just because they like the message more.

How people trust this man's word I will never understand. Nothing but lie after lie after lie. For example his statement that he had the biggest Electoral College win since Reagan (not even close to a true statement). But yet, somehow, he is convincing people to ignore truth and relish in his own world of lies.