Topic: John Romero says "Consoles need a massive rethink"

[MysterD]

John Romero (former Doom co-creator and the guy behind the horrid Daikatana) speaks on "consoles needing a massive rethink"

John Romero Says Consoles Need 'Massive Rethink'
DOOM co-creator sees PCs taking over without change.
By Patrick Klepek, 04/06/2007

Nintendo has the right idea with Wii, says DOOM co-creator (and the brain child behind Daikatana, if we're going to start slinging stones) John Romero. While whittling away at a new MMO he promises is "the first of its kind," the currently relaunching Adrenaline Vault probed Romero on where gaming's headed in an increasingly pro-console world.

Romero believes consoles will start to lose traction as multi-core processors become cheaper and cheaper to manufacture and sell to a mass audience, and the PC industry's in for a massive shift as they start to accommodate this change. Can these processors become cheap enough to convince consumers to drop their joysticks and pick up a keyboard and mouse instead? Romero says it's not that simple.

    "My prediction is that the game console in the vein of the PS3 and XBOX 360 is going to either undergo a massive rethink or go away altogether. The Wii has the perfect design for a console that doesn't pretend to be a PC and is geared more toward casual gamers than hardcore gamers. The hardcore gamers are going to either be playing on their PCs or a new PC-like platform that sits in the living room but still serves the whole house over wifi, even the video signal."

Romero's prediction is contingent on the mass audience deciding PCs can provide something console can't. With the Xbox Live Video Marketplace taking off better than most computer-based online services, and both Sony and Microsoft providing new ways to "computerize" their consoles, will cheap processors alone be enough?

And what is a "PC-like" platform, anyway?

[angrykeebler]

haha Romero is a funny guy. Props to him for hooking up with that one uber gamer chick though

[gpw11]

This guy's period of fame was before I got into videogames, but from what I understand he's pretty much the touch of death to games.  I can kind of see why.

"The hardcore gamers are going to either be playing on their PCs or a new PC-like platform that sits in the living room but still serves the whole house over wifi, even the video signal."

So....like an xbox360 with a media extender?  Seriously, it's like he doesn't even know what a console is.

[Pugnate]

Speaking of lower prices... you won't believe these new AMD ones. Intel also has lowered its prices including a $520 quadcore. They are supposed to go down even further in a couple of months would you believe!

 CPU     Clock Speed     L2 Cache     Price
AMD Athlon 64 X2 6000+    3.0GHz    1MBx2    $241
AMD Athlon 64 X2 5600+    2.8GHz    1MBx2    $188
AMD Athlon 64 X2 5200+    2.6GHz    1MBx2    $178
AMD Athlon 64 X2 5000+    2.6GHz    512KBx2    $167
AMD Athlon 64 X2 4800+    2.5GHz    512KBx2    $136
AMD Athlon 64 X2 4400+    2.3GHz    512KBx2    $121
AMD Athlon 64 X2 4000+    2.1GHz    512KBx2    $104
AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800+    2.0GHz    512KBx2    $83
AMD Athlon 64 X2 3600+    1.9GHz    512KBx2    $73

 CPU     Clock Speed     L2 Cache     Price
Intel Core 2 Extreme QX6800    2.93GHz x 2    4MB x 2    $1199
Intel Core 2 Extreme QX6700    2.66GHz x 2    4MB x 2    $999
Intel Core 2 Extreme X6800    2.93GHz    4MB    $999
Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600    2.40GHz x 2    4MB x 2    $530
Intel Core 2 Duo E6700    2.66GHz    4MB    $316
Intel Core 2 Duo E6600    2.40GHz    4MB    $224
Intel Core 2 Duo E6400    2.13GHz    2MB    $183
Intel Core 2 Duo E6300    1.86GHz    2MB    $163
Intel Core 2 Duo E4300    1.80GHz    2MB    $113


edit:

Also no one hates Romero more than Xessive. I'll let him explain.

[gpw11]

Shit, are those american prices?  When can we expect the to actually hit those in the real world market?

[Pugnate]

AMD yesterday and Intel on the 21st. From what I understand many of those prices are already in practice at Newegg.

And yes American prices. Also when I was posting this I was thinking you'd be really happy.

If you want to wait even longer, they are going to go down by 20% in a couple of months. That's what I guess was what inspired Romero. I'd highly recommend you go with an Intel system because most Intel mobos can be upgraded to Quadcore down the line. Same can't be said for AMD. Plus the AMD quadcores aren't nearly as good as their Intel counterparts.

In two months the quad core will be down to $220, which is insanity.

So I'd personally recommend you go for the E4300 at $113 and down the road you can get a cheaper quadcore, while you sell the E4300.

However if you want to go absolutely cheap, you can't go wrong with a $83 3800. Also it means you support AMD. Poor AMD lost revenues by 20%.

But the reason I am pushing Intel is that with a quad core expected to hit $220 in a few months, it will mean an easy upgrade since you keep the RAM and mobo you have. Games like F.E.A.R. and Supreme Commander are using multiple cores for a massive boost on performance.

[Xessive]

Those are some frickin' sweet prices! Looks like I'll be getting a dual core CPU before the Quad core is released

ROMERO!! You bastard! You destroyed Daikatana!! I KEELLL YOU!!

I'll kill him with a daikatana just to be ironic

[Pugnate]

hahaha

edit:

By the way both companies have their quadcores released. Also you are in the UAE so you are facing the same issue as my brother... no AMD hehe.

As for Intel, all their Q series processors are quadcore. Q6600 is going to be $530 on the 21st. Currently it is nearly a grand. I plan to upgrade to one when it gets down to $220 in a couple of months, and I will sell my E6400.

[gpw11]

Awesome, thanks for the news.  I've been sitting on getting a new pc for a year now because I had so much going on with work and school and don't really need the distraction.  That should all change though so maybe I'll wait for that 20% drop to hit.

As for the e4300, is there much of a point to it?  I know it overclocks well, but the e6300 is only about $20 more here.

[K-man]

I've spoken to John Romero multiple times through e-mail.  I also posted on his forums for a while.  The guy genuinely knows games.  Anyone who read into the Daikatana saga would find that a majority of that debacle was out of his control.  He certainly hasn't recaptured the glory days of Doom and Quake, for sure.  He's had less than stellar success since then.  His new MMO project is apparently a big one and if what he says is true could very well revolutionize the genre.

I do agree with him though.  Consoles do need a rethink.  We're moving closer and closer to just having PC's in our living rooms.  If we're going to continue to draw that line between consoles and PC's, manufacturers are really going to have to do something different with future iterations.

[Pugnate]

Good point GPW. I actually built my sister a system the other day on a tight budget and went with the Intel P965 and the E6300. I was initially going to go with the E4300 but in the end it was just $23 more in this part of the world.

Also KMAN that's pretty awesome that you've spoken to Romero. I actually find Romero's personality to be a bit similar to Peter Molyneux.

[Xessive]

Hehe I don't know the guy, and I'm not really sure how Daikatana's downfall began, but his name's on it "John Romero's Daikatana" so the fingers will automatically point there.

The guy co-created Doom! The mother of all FPS games! (Wolfenstein 3D is the father) He's obviously got some credibility when it comes games! hehe

I agree on the point of PC versus Consoles, but I believe that the corporations are going to keep PC and console completely separate. Even when PC's can technically do anything a console can do and more. Why? Mo' money. Next we'll start seeing "PC's that aren't PC's" in place of consoles, but you'll still need to own a PC in order to do regular PC stuff.

[Cobra951]

Just going by the quote here, I'm going to have to say that he's way off base.  Consoles already can be media centers, and I frankly don't see what more you could want from predigested online connectivity (read: for the average user) than what Microsoft has done already.  Also, if it's cheap tech for PCs, it will be cheaper in some prefab console design.  The 360 is already a 3-core system, for example.

Am I missing something?  I mean, when I read "massive rethink", I think of some fundamental change, or new concept no one has implemented.  Nothing he said beyond that ominous-sounding term was either massive or a rethink.

[scottws]

John Romero is talking, but is anybody listening?  I don't know anyone that would take anything he has to say to heart.

[iPPi]

Yea I don't think anything he has to say has any value whatsoever.

[K-man]

Also KMAN that's pretty awesome that you've spoken to Romero. I actually find Romero's personality to be a bit similar to Peter Molyneux.

He's probably one of the most approachable 'big names' in the industry.  He even took the time to answer questions while he was in grind mode working with Gauntlet:  Seven Sorrows.  He's not as grandiose as Molyneux though. 

Anyhow, to anyone who would discredit or choose not to recognize his opinion on games:  Sure the guy hasn't had the best track record in the past few years.  He's been mostly low key (and who wouldn't after the Daikatana debacle), but he is a very important voice in the history of PC gaming and still has more than enough credibility to be taken seriously.

[Jedi]

He's probably one of the most approachable 'big names' in the industry.  He even took the time to answer questions while he was in grind mode working with Gauntlet:  Seven Sorrows.  He's not as grandiose as Molyneux though. 

Anyhow, to anyone who would discredit or choose not to recognize his opinion on games:  Sure the guy hasn't had the best track record in the past few years.  He's been mostly low key (and who wouldn't after the Daikatana debacle), but he is a very important voice in the history of PC gaming and still has more than enough credibility to be taken seriously.

You have a point but while Romero is a name in PC history he's commenting on the future of console gaming - and seeing how he's been low key (not to mention Daikatana) that fact sticks in my throat a little.
GPW has already mentioned this but - "The hardcore gamers are going to either be playing on their PCs or a new PC-like platform that sits in the living room but still serves the whole house over wifi, even the video signal."
Yeah see anX360 already does that and I've read articles where they suggest PCs in your living room may be short lived and that the advent of the Media Center software was a little too late. (He suggests this on the back of HD content coming in and the digital rights restrictions but that is a whole other thing)
I don't totally agree with these other articles just like I don't agree with John boy here. I think there always be PCs and consoles and what appears in your home entertainment centre is a completely separate issue all together – not everyone wants to stream their MP3s to their incredibility expensive receivers and speakers (ie your pure mid-/hi-fi people and I live with such a person). The point is one persons thoughts on a setup is not the same as another’s and there’s really not guarantee that PCs (or even consoles) will take off as corner stone of home entertainment setups. I guess my point is many many people buy both to play games on first everything else is a add on, so.. so long as a console does just that (plays games) why do we need a rethink their doing what the designed for?

[Quemaqua]

Yeah, I don't agree with Romero here so much, but I generally find little real fault with the guy.  I think he gets a bad rap for no particularly good reason.

[Xessive]

Yeah, I don't agree with Romero here so much, but I generally find little real fault with the guy.  I think he gets a bad rap for no particularly good reason.

I kinda wish I was jealous of him just so I'd have a reasonable cause to dislike him hehe I only dislike him over the petty issues with Daikatana That's it. Other than I really have no grief with the guy hehe He seems like the kind of guy you could hang out with and have a really chilled out time.

[Pugnate]

John Romero's About To Make You His Bitch

I think a lot of hatred just stems from Romero's ego and how he over hyped gamers into paying for a piece of rubbish. The fact that most of the marketing involved him personally made people hate him.

[K-man]

John Romero's About To Make You His Bitch

He had nothing to do with that line.  That was all the marketing company. 

Edit:  Actually I can't really say that.  He did approve it, but only reluctantly and after some convincing that it was a good idea.  And it would have been, if the game had lived up.

[angrykeebler]

Angrykeebler says "Pugnate needs a massive rethink"
---------------
"He is pretty lame as he is right now...just...so lame" says Angrykeebler. "I think we need to put him down for good".

"I personally don't see any hope for him" he then said mournfully shaking his head.

[Antares]

"My prediction is that the game console in the vein of the PS3 and XBOX 360 is going to either undergo a massive rethink or go away altogether.

There is a massive flaw in his logic here.  Yes, the trend in consoles is for them to become more PC like, simply because a product evolves into something else doesn't mean it needs a "massive rethink"  evolution is a good thing.

[MysterD]

I think what John Romero should've said is, "I support the Wii b/c of its price. After Daikatana, I'm broke and can't afford a PS3 and X360."

[Jedi]

I think what John Romero should've said is, "I support the Wii b/c of its price. After Daikatana, I'm broke and can't afford a PS3 and X360."

Hahaha! 

[Xessive]

I think what John Romero should've said is, "I support the Wii b/c of its price. After Daikatana, I'm broke and can't afford a PS3 and X360."

Hehe After I'm through with him he won't have the motor skills necessary for a Wii!

[Pugnate]

As much as I dislike consoles, I find his logic flawed. WHY do they need a massive rethink? Why? If they did then they wouldn't be selling well, would they?

[Xessive]

As much as I dislike consoles, I find his logic flawed. WHY do they need a massive rethink? Why? If they did then they wouldn't be selling well, would they?

I don't think a "massive rethink" is necessary, just a minor revolution in consoles. Something that defines them, and separates them from simply being living-room-friendly PC's to completely autonomous devices (which may interact with PC's or other devices).

[MysterD]

As much as I dislike consoles, I find his logic flawed. WHY do they need a massive rethink? Why? If they did then they wouldn't be selling well, would they?

Yeah, he doesn't really explain too much into why they need a massive rethink.

Maybe their pricing needs a re-think....they consoles are expensive for a console, regardless of the bang-for-your-buck you'll get given what they give you for hardware. And most of their brand new games don't budge much from their $60 tag (since they know they got you by the balls, anyways).

One thing I think consoles could use is support of KB/mouse. Really though, then maybe there could be some RTS's (think like CoH and Starcraft) and the click-and-point RPG's on the console (like Titan Quest and NWN series) -- and done right control-wise, too. Same goes for FPS's, too.

Other than those minor things, I dunno -- I don't think consoles need TOO much of a rethink.

I don't think a "massive rethink" is necessary, just a minor revolution in consoles.

I agree.

Something that defines them, and separates them from simply being living-room-friendly PC's to completely autonomous devices (which may interact with PC's or other devices).

My biggest thing w/ the X360 and PC, so many games are multi-platformed for both platforms, I just might as well stick w/ my PC.

The Wii, on the other hand, has the Wii-mote and a handful of Nintendo exclusives you won't see anywhere else but on their systems. And its price-tag is much cheaper, too.

[Jedi]

One thing I think consoles could use is support of KB/mouse. Really though, then maybe there could be some RTS's (think like CoH and Starcraft) and the click-and-point RPG's on the console (like Titan Quest and NWN series) -- and done right control-wise, too. Same goes for FPS's, too.

The KB/Mouse thing is a personal preference thing so I'm not interested in debating that any further, but C&C3 is coming to the 360 just as C7C1 was on the PS1. (Though I chose to pick this title up on the PC because, even though it can be done, I don't like the idea of an RTS on the game pad - again though I feel this might be more personal preference but we'll see maybe EA will totally screw up the controls)
I fail to see your point about FPS(/3rdPS) there's plenty of those already and they work just fine, and there's plenty of RPGs too.

As for the prices... well a 360 new was cheaper compared to the last generation and currently a PS3 costs nearly twice as much as a 360! Regardless of that both are still cheaper than a new gaming rig, waaay cheaper. Though I agree with you on the games they range from $99 to $120 (NZ) for a new 360 game (and a new PC game would run me no more than $99).

[gpw11]

I'm pretty sure MS caved and an official 360 KB/M is on the way.  Pretty sure I saw that on digg.  I'll look for it after the hockey game.

[iPPi]

I'm pretty sure MS caved and an official 360 KB/M is on the way.  Pretty sure I saw that on digg.  I'll look for it after the hockey game.

They're providing a keyboard add on that plugs into the controller.  It's primary use is for conversing with people since the next XBL update will incorporate Windows Live Messenger.  No word on a mouse though.

[Pugnate]

Yea that thing that is attached to the controller right? Unfortunately they had one for the Xbox and developers won't program a game for any peripheral that didn't come standard with the system.

But I thought it looked neato.

[Xessive]

I don't get why they won't just give support for USB KB & mouse.. I mean besides the obvious $$$.. Doesn't the 360 already have USB slots? The PS3 natively supports USB KB & mouse, right?

Man, I know next to nothing about the current consoles

Going with MyD, the Wii stands out because of its unique control and the exclusive Nintendo releases.

On the other hand Microsoft is gonna try to juggle its PC & console players.. I don't see how they plan on succeeding unless they unify us or eliminate one of us.. Considering how badly they want people to buy Vista and a 360 they damn well better find a way to keep both PC and console players satiated.

[MysterD]

I don't get why they won't just give support for USB KB & mouse.. I mean besides the obvious $$$.. Doesn't the 360 already have USB slots?

Exactly my point.

I mean, I'm sure many PC gamers jumped to the 360 b/c they don't have the $ yet to buy a new PC. I'm sure they'd prefer certain games w/ a KB/mouse. And most point-and-click games play so easy and wonderfully w/ a KB/mouse. Many gamers prefer for FPS's and RTS's that type of controller.

And as for console gamers, they generally like control pads for their games. You have to support them, of course, since that is how most console gamers play -- especially for fighting games like the Street Fighters and Mortal Kombat, where you have to do have motion circles and junk to pull a special move off.

I say this -- why not support both for the X360 for their games?? I mean, hell -- PC games support BOTH KB/mouse AND gamepads; especially the X360 pad.

On the other hand Microsoft is gonna try to juggle its PC & console players.. I don't see how they plan on succeeding unless they unify us or eliminate one of us.. Considering how badly they want people to buy Vista and a 360 they damn well better find a way to keep both PC and console players satiated.

Well, M$ ain't jugglin' me. PC gamer; that's me. Especially when they bring most of their so-called "exclusive console" titles from the XBox/X360 over to the PC. I'd rather wait a few years for a console game to be ported over to my PC (correctly) then go buy a X360 and then -- oh, look, PC version coming soon! I'm sure I'll be buying plenty of OTHER games for my PC, anyways -- I buy so many, it ain't even funny....

Personally, I don't see either PC or the X360 going ANYWHERE -- they have their PC loyalists and the console loyalist. And, there's some who own both the PC and X360.

M$ just seems to be on top, right now -- in both PC and console worlds, whether we like it or not.

Going with MyD, the Wii stands out because of its unique control and the exclusive Nintendo releases.

Agreed.

Yuh, the controller just seems cool and different, compared to most controllers -- since its somewhat interactive and all.

And since Nintendo DON'T bring THEIR games to the PC, it makes the Wii stand-out as a console platform, currently -- it's all about the exclusives. I am NOT looking for a platform where most of the games I'm interested in are multi-platformed or will be multi-platformed for the PC and console -- if that does happen, I'd very likely just pick up the PC version, regardless....

[Cobra951]

I don't get why they won't just give support for USB KB & mouse.. I mean besides the obvious $$$.. Doesn't the 360 already have USB slots? The PS3 natively supports USB KB & mouse, right?

The 360 does support USB keyboards, but not in games.  I should really get a super-cheap one, for those rare times I need to send messages or do other text entry into the dashboard stuff.  No mouse support, though, which is the bigger loss.

Edit:  Now that I think about it, text entry in games should work with a keyboard.  They always call out to the canned system facility when text entry is required.

[Jedi]

On the other hand Microsoft is gonna try to juggle its PC & console players.. I don't see how they plan on succeeding unless they unify us or eliminate one of us.. Considering how badly they want people to buy Vista and a 360 they damn well better find a way to keep both PC and console players satiated.

I think D answered this one...

I mean, I'm sure many PC gamers jumped to the 360 b/c they don't have the $ yet to buy a new PC. I'm sure they'd prefer certain games w/ a KB/mouse. And most point-and-click games play so easy and wonderfully w/ a KB/mouse. Many gamers prefer for FPS's and RTS's that type of controller.

And as for console gamers, they generally like control pads for their games. You have to support them, of course, since that is how most console gamers play -- especially for fighting games like the Street Fighters and Mortal Kombat, where you have to do have motion circles and junk to pull a special move off.

Perhaps MS is juggling both markets by denying one KB/Mouse support then you'll need to get the game on the PC and the game will eventually come to PC. Maybe MS is banking in on the fact that so many people cry "we can't play 'X' type games on a games paid" wil feed the PC market with demand and those with consoles (who can work a gamepad regardless of the type of game i.e me) will feed that market with demand.

But anyway I don't see why MS would have to "unify" us in order to succeed; the PC and console markets are two different beasts; Vista isn't aimed just at the gamer it includes business' and general home users (which the 360 doesn't cover) - so Vista's market is far larger than that of the 360's.

[MysterD]

I think D answered this one...

Perhaps MS is juggling both markets by denying one KB/Mouse support then you'll need to get the game on the PC and the game will eventually come to PC. Maybe MS is banking in on the fact that so many people cry "we can't play 'X' type games on a games paid" wil feed the PC market with demand and those with consoles (who can work a gamepad regardless of the type of game i.e me) will feed that market with demand.

I see a lot of "supply and demand" going on w/ the PC and X360 market.

There's a hot PC game, X360 gamers want it -- X360 consoles eventually get it. Just look at they cried for FEAR -- well, it's there now!

Vice versa. There's a hot X360, PC gamers want it -- we will eventually get it. GoW looks like one of those and so does Mass Effect.

But anyway I don't see why MS would have to "unify" us in order to succeed; the PC and console markets are two different beasts; Vista isn't aimed just at the gamer it includes business' and general home users (which the 360 doesn't cover) - so Vista's market is far larger than that of the 360's.

I don't either b/c both M$'s PC and consoles markets have their own loyalists -- as long as there are those loyalists, nothing will change. I don't see it happening anytime soon -- especially since Microsoft really isn't trying to convert PC gamers into console gamers or the vice versa here. They're trying to take both markets -- and they're not doing much to convert anybody other to one particular platform.

Plus, there's some gamers that own both a X360 and a PC -- and well, these seem to be just plain ole M$ loyalists, who want both their console and PC.

[Xessive]

I wish all games worked in Linux.

[MysterD]

Since this is John Romero related news here....

GameTap has been made now as Daikatana's bitch.

Daikatana will join GameTap on Sept 6th.

So, ummm...when is Daikatana gonna join STEAM then...?!?