Author Topic: Chris Taylor and Peter Molyneux join the death of PC gaming chant  (Read 27122 times)

Offline Pugnate

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Chris Taylor and Peter Molyneux join the death of PC gaming chant
« on: Thursday, February 14, 2008, 06:34:56 AM »
Kinda Depressing:

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2008/02/13/gears-of-war-creator-update/

Quote
“I think people would rather make a game that sells 4.5 million copies than a million and “Gears” is at 4.5 million right now on the 360. I think the PC is just in disarray… what’s driving the PC right now is ‘Sims’-type games and ‘WoW‘ and a lot of stuff that’s in a web-based interface. You just click on it and play it. That’s the direction PC is evolving into So for me, the PC is kind of the secondary part of what we’re doing. It’s important for us, but right now making AAA games on consoles is where we’re at.”

Offline scottws

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #1 on: Thursday, February 14, 2008, 07:17:25 AM »
Well, that's certainly disheartenting to hear from CliffyB, but at the same time, people have said that PC gaming is dying for like a decade now and still some pretty awesome games keep coming out for them.  And some of the bigger hits (not counting The Sims or WoW) sell better today than they did ten years ago.

PC gaming is full of pirates and games don't sell as well from a volume perspective compared to consoles, but PC games are selling alright considering the history of the PC itself.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #2 on: Thursday, February 14, 2008, 08:44:26 AM »
Quote
PC gaming is full of pirates and games don't sell as well from a volume perspective compared to consoles, but PC games are selling alright considering the history of the PC itself

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=17110

I've got some sad news for you my friend. PC game sales are depressingly down by 60 million this year.

Sales from 2007:

1. World Of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade (Vivendi) - 2.25 million
2. World Of Warcraft (Vivendi) - 914,000
3. The Sims 2: Seasons Expansion Pack (Electronic Arts) - 433,000
4. Call Of Duty 4: Modern Warfare (Activision) - 383,000
5. Command & Conquer 3: Tiberium Wars (Electronic Arts) - 343,000
6. Sim City 4 Deluxe (Electronic Arts) - 284,000
7. The Sims 2 (Electronic Arts) - 281,000
8. The Sims 2: Bon Voyage Expansion Pack (Electronic Arts) - 271,000
9. Age Of Empires III (Microsoft) - 259,000
10. The Sims 2: Pets Expansion Pack (Electronic Arts) - 236,000

Take away WoW and The Sims.... and what the hell do you have left?

COD4 sold 343,000 on the PC in 2007. Compare that to over 7 million copies on the 360.

What's next in line? AOE3 at 259,000.

That's pretty horrible.

Consider this: Crysis, UT3, Gears of War, Bioshock, Company of Heroes, Supreme Commander, Quake Wars, World in Conflict, etc etc were all unable to sell 200,000 copies in 2007.

So what the hell is going on here?

Not even a few years ago, these games would have easily sold a million copies each. And it can't be all piracy.

Having said that, I must say that Cliffy B's comments aren't all that valid. First of all, if Gears of War sells 4 million on the 360 and a year later sells 1 million on the PC, then is that really bad considering most people have already played it?

Secondly you take UT3 and you realize that it was basically the same game in a shiny new engine. The singleplayer was an embarrassing joke.

http://www.thesimexchange.com/search.php?string=unreal+tournament+2007

As you can see, UT3 sold virtually the same on PS3 and the PC, despite the PS3 market having far fewer shooters. So the point is, maybe there was something wrong with the game? In the end, yes, we do still have a problem here, but I don't think UT3 was that good of a game to begin with.

Offline K-man

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #3 on: Thursday, February 14, 2008, 09:26:04 AM »
I tried to make this argument a few months ago and was vehemently shot down. 

http://www.overwritten.net/forum/index.php?topic=2505.0

I don't think anyone can reasonably deny that gaming has definitely shifted and is console-centric.  Games you'd buy on the PC a few years ago are being sold in droves on consoles now.  CoD4 is just one example.  Developers are going to go where the money is, and right now and for the foreseeable future the money platforms are consoles.

Sure, the PC will always have its niche market, but that market is decidedly smaller than it used to be.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #4 on: Thursday, February 14, 2008, 09:59:39 AM »
Where the fuck was I during that thread??

I have to say, that things aren't as bad as those figures suggest. STEAM just hit 15 million users, and by all accounts online sales are eating a lot into this. Yes there is a problem, and yes it is big, but perhaps online sales are one of the reasons for the decline.

Also consider that the 360 has 17 million owners, and STEAM has 15 million active users, so there is a market for PC, even if it is a bit odd.

Keep in mind, that this problem is restricted to North America only.

PC games are selling like hotcakes in Europe. That's why you will continue to see games like The Witcher and Crysis. So unless George Bush decides that its high time he invaded Europe -- which lets face it, could happen -- PC gaming will have enough sales to see at least some sort of activity.

Just going to paste some info on Crysis that I said in another thread where I was having an argument with some ignorant poster. So here is my quote:

Quote
I was listening to the 1up podcast, and they were doubting the sales figures. Even people on these forums oftens express disbelief. A wide misconception seems to be that the game in the USA sold 86,000 since it was released, which isn't true:

http://www.thesimexchange.com/blogpost.php?post_id=455

That is 86,000 in the last two weeks of November. Doesn't include December, Jan., etc.

Here are Crysis sales in the USA during December:

http://www.yougamers.com/news/16639_us_pc_game_sales_charts_-_december_22nd/

No2., right behind COD4.

Assuming it even reached 250,000 in the USA, it isn't hard to see why it reached 1 million worldwide, considering Germany and UK Crysis sales are still going strong.

Crysis is still in the top 3 in the UK, and it is selling. In Germany it is still the best selling PC game (ahead of COD4), and in the top 4 overall software sales -- which is incredible. Yes it is beating all PS3 and Xbox 360 titles in Germany.

Recent sales figures:

Sales in Germany:

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=32923

Sales in UK:

http://www.yougamers.com/news/17330_uk_pc_game_sales_charts_-_january_26th/

But we do have a problem in North America.

Just thinking of RPGs; Baldur's Gate, Baludr's Gate II, Neverwinter Nights all sold over 2.5 million copies back in the day. Diablo II sold 4.5 million.

Now the last Neverwinter Nights game only sold 1.4 million, and that was largely due to Europe. The Witcher hit over a million in Europe and barely 200 000 in the USA. Meanwhile Mass Effect just hit 1.6 million in two months.



Offline idolminds

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #5 on: Thursday, February 14, 2008, 10:14:10 AM »
NPD numbers mean shit because they dont track any online sales. Down $60 million last year? How many of those 15 million Steam users bought multiple games? According to most of the IGN PCGB board, most of those people said they havent bought a game at retail all year, opting to buy games off Steam instead. While that won't be the same for everyone, the simple fact that none of those sales get tracked could easily make up the $60 million. Not to mention the casual game space that sells online like PopCap.

As for CliffyBs comment. Gears was a year old console port that was tied to shitty GFWL, which turned people off it. UT3 is just like the last UT but prettier. Both games requires some heafty systems to make them look their best. Gee, I wonder why they didn't sell 4 million copies of each....

Offline Pugnate

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #6 on: Thursday, February 14, 2008, 10:20:34 AM »
The problem here is that STEAM don't release sales figures. But come on dude, we are facing a decline here. It probably isn't as bad as it is being made out to be, largely because of online distribution, but even if you consider those titles that aren't sold online, you will notice a big downward trend.

Also you wrote $15 million STEAM users, which is funny. :P

Also I have to disagree with you on the UT3 hefty requirements thing. The game is fantastic at scaling. On my sister's 7950GT, it runs brilliantly. On my cousin's 7300, it again runs really well.

However you can tell where the bloody focus is. In advertising for UT3 in most mags, I saw it said,"Brought to you by the makers of Gears of War."

That I found a bit pathetic. It should be the other way around.

Also for some wonderfully passionate responses, go here:

http://boards.1up.com/zd/board/message?board.id=games&thread.id=596409

Offline idolminds

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #7 on: Thursday, February 14, 2008, 10:51:10 AM »
I don't know. Is there a problem? Yeah, a little one. I just don't think its nearly as bad as its made out to be. I'm still convinced that Steam (and stuff like Direct2Drive, plus subscriptions like Gametap) sales would easily account for the slump in sales this year.

I wish the NPD would section out systems. They single out PC software sales, but why not show individual console sales? I want to see how the DS did against the 360. Plus if gives a more accurate picture.

Same with software. I want to see top 10 lists per console. Hell, I want to see top 50 lists. I want to see how quickly things drop off. Looking at just the top 10 list of all consoles combined:

1. Halo 3 (Xbox 360, Microsoft) - 4.82 million
2. Wii Play w/remote (Wii, Nintendo) - 4.12 million
3. Call of Duty 4 (Xbox 360, Activision) - 3.04 million
4. Guitar Hero III: Legends Of Rock w/guitar (PlayStation 2, Neversoft/Budcat/Activision) 2.72 million
5. Super Mario Galaxy (Wii, Nintendo) - 2.52 million
6. Pokemon Diamond (DS, Nintendo) - 2.48 million
7. Madden NFL 08 (PS2, Electronic Arts) - 1.90 million
8. Guitar Hero II w/guitar (PS2, Activision) - 1.89 million
9. Assassin's Creed (Xbox 360, Ubisoft) - 1.87 million
10. Mario Party 8 (Wii, Nintendo) - 1.82 million

You're down to 1.82 million by #10. Yes, thats still a lot. And a lot more than most of the PC sales. But how quickly does it go down from there? Do you get sub-million sales by #15? #20? Where? On a per-console basis how quickly does it drop? Sure console heavy hitter really do hit hard and put up huge numbers, but I'm sure if you look at the entire thing it tapers off quickly, just like the PC.

Though the PC top 10 could teach devs something. They are all games that are fairly easy to get into and dont require a beefy system to run (CoD4 being the "odd man out" I suppose). Maybe thats why you see EA doing Battlefield Heroes.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #8 on: Thursday, February 14, 2008, 11:02:27 AM »
Well even by the list you posted, doesn't the difference appear pretty large to you? Sure you've got Orange Box sales on STEAM, but a lot of these games aren't on it. The Witcher should have sold a lot more than 200,000. Company of Heroes deserved to move millions of pieces.

Though I have to say, I think 2008 will be an incredible year sales wise for the PC.

You've got:

1. StarCraft = Estimated 15 million sales
2. Spore = 8 million
3. WarCraft Rise of the Bitch King: 10 million

Then you have Far Cry 2, Fallout 3, Warhammer online, and Age of fucking Conan!

Offline K-man

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #9 on: Thursday, February 14, 2008, 11:05:23 AM »
I don't know. Is there a problem? Yeah, a little one. I just don't think its nearly as bad as its made out to be. I'm still convinced that Steam (and stuff like Direct2Drive, plus subscriptions like Gametap) sales would easily account for the slump in sales this year.

I wish the NPD would section out systems. They single out PC software sales, but why not show individual console sales? I want to see how the DS did against the 360. Plus if gives a more accurate picture.

Same with software. I want to see top 10 lists per console. Hell, I want to see top 50 lists. I want to see how quickly things drop off. Looking at just the top 10 list of all consoles combined:

1. Halo 3 (Xbox 360, Microsoft) - 4.82 million
2. Wii Play w/remote (Wii, Nintendo) - 4.12 million
3. Call of Duty 4 (Xbox 360, Activision) - 3.04 million
4. Guitar Hero III: Legends Of Rock w/guitar (PlayStation 2, Neversoft/Budcat/Activision) 2.72 million
5. Super Mario Galaxy (Wii, Nintendo) - 2.52 million
6. Pokemon Diamond (DS, Nintendo) - 2.48 million
7. Madden NFL 08 (PS2, Electronic Arts) - 1.90 million
8. Guitar Hero II w/guitar (PS2, Activision) - 1.89 million
9. Assassin's Creed (Xbox 360, Ubisoft) - 1.87 million
10. Mario Party 8 (Wii, Nintendo) - 1.82 million

You're down to 1.82 million by #10. Yes, thats still a lot. And a lot more than most of the PC sales. But how quickly does it go down from there? Do you get sub-million sales by #15? #20? Where? On a per-console basis how quickly does it drop? Sure console heavy hitter really do hit hard and put up huge numbers, but I'm sure if you look at the entire thing it tapers off quickly, just like the PC.

Though the PC top 10 could teach devs something. They are all games that are fairly easy to get into and dont require a beefy system to run (CoD4 being the "odd man out" I suppose). Maybe thats why you see EA doing Battlefield Heroes.


I'm sure the numbers do sharply drop off at some point.  But you also have to consider that while the console market may be larger than the PC market, it's also much more diluted.  So to me, those console sales figures mean more than PC sales figures for the sheer fact that they're involved in much more competition for your dollar.

And I really think you guys are overestimating DD sales.  Although I obviously have no way to prove or disprove that.

Offline idolminds

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #10 on: Thursday, February 14, 2008, 11:11:09 AM »
Heh, something else I noticed on the PC top 10: 9 of the 10 games are PC only. Perhaps people aren't so inclined to buy multiplatform titles on PC?

*EDIT since seeing your latest post*

I agree that more games deserved to sell better. I guess I can't really be angry that devs want to sell 4 million copies compared to 200,000. Maybe thats the shift that'll happen in the PC world. Games designed where 200,000 is enough to sell. Well...I'll say 2 million. As you can see, only a handful sell more than that.

Speaking of The Witcher, this came out today:

Quote
Warsaw, 14th February, 2008. CD Projekt RED is proud to announce that the company's debut video game production, The Witcher, has sold more than 600,000 copies worldwide in just three months.

Adam Kicnski, CD Projekt RED Joint CEO, commented on the sales results: "We are very happy with The Witcher's performance to date. Our goal was - and still is - to reach one million copies sold during the first year. 600,000 games sold in just three months brings us much closer to this ambitious goal. It's a great success for us, made all the more impressive by the fact that The Witcher was created by a completely new team and it is our debut both as a game developer and in bringing our products to a global audience. The task was not easy, as The Witcher brand was completely unknown in many markets, and it was released in a busy season alongside franchises that have been on the market for many years. Yet, I can confidently say that we've passed this trial victoriously. Actually, only now - as we've conquered many of the initial barriers - can we spread our wings, which, of course, we intend to do. Such success wouldn't be possible without our publishers' support - Atari, Noviy Disk and the publishing branch of CD Projekt. They all put a lot of work into the game's promotion in individual markets."

The exceptionally warm welcome given to The Witcher by media and gamers around the world facilitated the commercial success of our game. This grand welcome is illustrated by 48 awards and distinctions - a number which is constantly rising - including the prestigious "PC RPG of the Year" from popular outlets like IGN.com, GameSpy, Play Magazine and the US edition of PC Gamer, as well as the award for "Readers' Choice Winner - Best RPG" at GameSpot (see the full list of awards: http://www.thewitcher.com/community/en/awards/). The game has received exceptionally high ratings from players all over the world, which is manifested in high average scores in players' reviews at sites like Metacritic (9.4/10), GameTrailers (9.1/10) and GameSpot (8.8/10).

Adam Kicinski also hints at the developer's plans for the near future: "Our plans include continuous game support, the release of the powerful Da'jinni module editor, the continued release of game updates and patches, and in late spring gamers can expect a pretty big surprise, which will be revealed at a press conference really soon - February 18th! We are still working on making the game better and we will actively support our fan community, which is getting bigger and bigger. Unfortunately I can't reveal anything further at this time, but I assure you that we won't rest on our laurels and we have very promising plans for the future. We set our standards very high with The Witcher and we surely don't want to lower them in the future."
Woah, bit surprise in 4 days!

Offline Cobra951

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #11 on: Thursday, February 14, 2008, 11:21:53 AM »
I think denying PC game sales are declining is, well, denial.  Piracy is a big reason, but it's not the only one.  K-Man made some good points in his thread.  Think about the difference between a Gamecube or PS2 and a 360 or PS3.  Finally consoles can handle the audiovisuals as well as they need to be.  Diminishing returns means diminishing perceived differences between PC and console power.  The lack of of a mouse equivalent continues to be a problem for consoles, but only for certain types of games.  (And it well be addressed at some point, maybe in a Wii fashion.) 

In the meantime, PCs have been going through fundamental upheavals in architecture, and the top games continue to demand the latest and greatest.  Multicore CPUs, PCIe replacing AGP, memory differences, 64-bit vs 32-bit, AMD vs Intel, Nvidia vs ATi--no wait, ATi is AMD--XP vs Vista, to SLI or not to SLI, that is the silliness, and don't forget that dedicated 20-amp line just for your PC's graphics.  A college-level course in PC building isn't necessary, but it might help if you don't have experienced friends.  How's your bank account?  Can you afford PC gaming over the next 6 months?

Not everyone is going to go through that shit if they have a viable alternative.  What are the console shortcomings that get in the way of using them to simplify the time and money investment in game hardware?  (1) What you see and what you hear--handled.  (2) Online interaction--handled.  (3) Online distribution--handled.  (4) Control--needs work for FPS games mostly.  (5) Storage--handled.

With those facts whittling away at the mass market, PCs will survive only as an elite, niche gaming environment, and as a casual environment for smaller downloaded and online games like Peggle.  The latter can be huge.  The former cannot.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #12 on: Thursday, February 14, 2008, 11:33:30 AM »
Idol, that's good. Again, what would we PC gamers do without Europe?

Cobra, this is in my mind one of the issues:

http://www.joystiq.com/2006/07/12/epics-mark-rein-intel-is-killing-pc-gaming/

From what I understand, it would cost Intel $4 extra per on board video to make sure all their parts are capable of running the latest games on some level.

But they won't do it, of course.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #13 on: Thursday, February 14, 2008, 11:43:48 AM »
I don't think so.  He's adding 2+2 and coming up with 7.  Do you really think that if it were as simple as to beef up integrated graphics, that it wouldn't have happened already?  A good graphics card is a parallel computer.  It is fully self-contained, complete with its own processor, I/O and memory.  In this case the "O" is all-important, because it goes straight out to the display device.  It's not stuck at some internal level on the motherboard.

If you want to be cynical, look at it another way.  Graphics cards have created their own need.  Now games demand that kind of specialized performance, where once the CPU and support processors sufficed.  Graphics chips integrated into the traditional PC architecture cannot compete, and cannot meet the current software's demands.

Offline idolminds

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #14 on: Thursday, February 14, 2008, 11:45:13 AM »
And I really think you guys are overestimating DD sales.  Although I obviously have no way to prove or disprove that.
I think DD is important, especially this year when its taken off and PC numbers look "down". Its down $60 million this year. Steam has 15 million users. If each of those user spent only $4 on a Steam game you've made up the difference. Thats less than Peggle. Hell, I think I paid that for Geometry Wars on Steam last year. Not all 15 million will buy stuff, but the people buying multiple $50 games from the service more than makes up for it. And Steam is just one service that sells games online. And NONE of them are tracked.

I don't deny that consoles do sell more. As Cobra showed, its easy to see why. Its simpler, its generally cheaper. Oddly enough, I think games being as expensive as they are to make helps the PC, especially with Microsoft in the console space. They are spending assloads of money to create a game on 360, and without very substantial changes you can port it to the PC...why wouldn't you? If you can get 200,000 more copies sold without much effort, it makes sense to do.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #15 on: Thursday, February 14, 2008, 11:57:26 AM »
The thing with a console is that one company is buying all the components, putting them together, and then shipping them at a massive loss.

In a PC, you are buying components seperately from sellers keeping profits for each piece so yea... it is tough to go against console gaming when a company like MS is so willing to back it up, yet doesn't give a damn about Windows.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #16 on: Thursday, February 14, 2008, 12:00:05 PM »
I thought I saw something about tracking online sales recently.  It definitely needs to be done.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #17 on: Thursday, February 14, 2008, 12:01:50 PM »
Quote
Steam has 15 million users. If each of those user spent only $4 on a Steam game you've made up the difference

Been thinking about this, and Idol is right. In fact he wins the thread.

Even if 10 million are active, it is easy to see them spending $10 a year. Think about how that NPD list doesn't have The Orange Box, which definitely sold a gazilion copies.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #18 on: Thursday, February 14, 2008, 12:03:38 PM »
Yes, it absolutely needs to be done.  That Gamasutra article I just linked is hopefully the answer, eventually.

Edit:  But note that console sales will be likewise boosted.  I've seen people post on the 360 forums that they buy all XBLA releases as soon as they appear.  There's a lot of money being made online with consoles as well.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #19 on: Thursday, February 14, 2008, 12:05:50 PM »
Suddenly I feel better.

Thanks guys. I love you.

Offline MysterD

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #20 on: Thursday, February 14, 2008, 03:35:33 PM »
Idol, that's good. Again, what would we PC gamers do without Europe?

Cobra, this is in my mind one of the issues:

http://www.joystiq.com/2006/07/12/epics-mark-rein-intel-is-killing-pc-gaming/

From what I understand, it would cost Intel $4 extra per on board video to make sure all their parts are capable of running the latest games on some level.

But they won't do it, of course.

Why would Intel do it? They do processors, not GPU's.

Back to what I said in the other thread, there needs to be a standard set for vid cards, basically -- and ATI and Nvidia are the leaders, so they need to do this themselves. The more I think about it, the more I think all these low-end vid cards, just need to go away from PC gaming period. That's namely b/c the mid-range to high-end cards are what ATI and NVidia are putting in major console gaming systems (like the X360) AND b/c those are what vid cards are selling from retail and online outlets.

And this is also what the developers are namely pushing for minimum requirements for the vid card, if you look at things -- all mid-range to high-range cards are supported chipsets in most of these games; all GF cards ending in 600 to 800. So, basically, that would be your 6600, 6800, 7600, 7800, 8600, and 8800.

All them 6200, 7200, 8500 -- they all got to go. This way, retail chains won't sell PC's w/ that integrated junk AND other low-end card stuff. Yes, there's WAY yoo many vid card flavors. Let's cut them DOWN, ATI and NVidia.

Hell, I remember in the market, when basically the GF2 and GF2 MX series ran the vid card market -- that was all before they came up w/ the GF2 Pro, Ti, Ultra, and many more variations of the GF2 card came about when they pretty much began going to the crazy vid card wars w/ ATI, where both were trying to outdo each other w/ every card model being made.

Quote
But we do have a problem in North America.

Just thinking of RPGs; Baldur's Gate, Baludr's Gate II, Neverwinter Nights all sold over 2.5 million copies back in the day. Diablo II sold 4.5 million.

Now the last Neverwinter Nights game only sold 1.4 million, and that was largely due to Europe. The Witcher hit over a million in Europe and barely 200 000 in the USA. Meanwhile Mass Effect just hit 1.6 million in two months.
Also, just look at the requirements of those games, when they came out. None of those were stiff, for their time being for their minimum requirements. Plus, that was also the beginnings of a major boom in the PC RPG genre, those years -- something during that time, the PC was in dire need of.

Crysis, GH3 PC, and Stranglehold PC, on the other hand -- very, very stiff for their time.

I'll be curious to see what Mass Effect's min. requirements will be on the PC, myself...probably similar to that of many other current multi-platformed X360 and PC games, like say Bioshock.


Offline Pugnate

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #21 on: Thursday, February 14, 2008, 03:46:35 PM »
Quote
Why would Intel do it? They do processors, not GPU's.

Did you visit the link? The point of contention is onboard video. It should be at the very least capable enough of running games at some basic level. Costs are estimated at a couple of bucks or so per mobo.

A lot of people are pissed at Intel because of this, as Intel on board video accounts for 70% or something.

Offline MysterD

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #22 on: Thursday, February 14, 2008, 03:59:53 PM »
Did you visit the link? The point of contention is onboard video. It should be at the very least capable enough of running games at some basic level. Costs are estimated at a couple of bucks or so per mobo.

A lot of people are pissed at Intel because of this, as Intel on board video accounts for 70% or something.


But, really -- how many game developers and games do you think would support an Intel integrated-card, if Intel did such a thing??

Do you think it'll put that much of a major dent on ATI and NVidia w/ their GPU business? Do you think if Intel did such a thing, it would get the hardcore gamers to leave either ATI or NVidia???

Offline idolminds

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #23 on: Thursday, February 14, 2008, 04:13:02 PM »
It doesnt have to make a dent against GPUs, it just has to make the absolute bare-minimum better than it currently is. This isnt for hardcores, this is for the person that just buys a computer and wants to play something more complicated than minesweeper.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #24 on: Thursday, February 14, 2008, 04:43:13 PM »
But, really -- how many game developers and games do you think would support an Intel integrated-card, if Intel did such a thing??

Do you think it'll put that much of a major dent on ATI and NVidia w/ their GPU business? Do you think if Intel did such a thing, it would get the hardcore gamers to leave either ATI or NVidia???

I mean this in the nicest possible way... what the hell are you saying? :P

This has nothing to do with Nvidia or ATi. It is about increasing the size of the market, so that any Tom, Dick, or Hairy could in theory pick up a game and be at least able to run it without having to worry about GPUs -- things too complicated for them. This would mean that anyone with a computer could at least run Civilization IV, or Unreal Tournament at min settings.

And this is good for ATi and Nvidia as well. With a broader market, newer gamers are more likely to want to upgrade.

Offline gpw11

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #25 on: Thursday, February 14, 2008, 06:10:21 PM »
PC gaming is fucked because there are too many players involved with entirely different motivations and goals.  That's not going to change.  Sure, Intel could spend $4 on their integrated offerings, but they're happy saving that $4 dollars per unit and selling just as many motherboards.  Who can blame them?  ATI and Nvidia could set a standard and not offer low end cards (the market there is already being eaten up by integrated chip sets anyways) but the mainstream cards are still their bread and butter, yet often can't run the newest games either.  What do you want them to do, get rid of those?  Lower the price of the high-end cards?  Why do that when they make enough money as it is selling high end cards at steep premiums to people who will run out and buy the next card as soon as it comes out anyways.  Retailers could only sell PCs with mid-range cards in them, but why?  It pushes up costs for consumers who have no interest in playing games in the first place and probably has a negative affect on the reseller and retailer markup.  They don't give a fuck how games sell, so why would they make any sacrifices.

Lets not kid ourselves here, PC gaming isn't a victim of anything but poor execution across the board.  Console gaming has exploded in recent years and the growth of PC gaming has not kept up.  PC gaming might not be 'dying' according to sales, but it's certainly not in the same place it was previously.  There's a reason for this: most people find console gaming more satisfying, less complicated, and generally more cost effective.  Beyond that, most publishers and developers have found it to be more lucrative and less risky.  I don't think they're necessarily wrong in any way.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #26 on: Thursday, February 14, 2008, 08:34:19 PM »
I hate these pointless threads.  It's all been said before, it keeps being said, and there are lots of things to consider on both sides.  But what it comes down to is that PC gaming is not and never has been dying.  Sure, it's losing more money to console sales now, but gaming in general is a billion times more popular now than it was 10 years ago, PC or otherwise.  Of course you're going to lose more money to less complicated systems when you start massing a huge market of dipshits who don't know how to turn on their fucking microwave, let alone operate a computer, but that doesn't immediately mean that your business is dying off.  Add to that most people droning on about the PC's decline drastically underestimate the popularity of online distribution systems (and most I've queried don't even know how many there are, meaning they can't even try to guess at how big the combined user base is across the board... there's an awful lot more than just Steam out there that needs to be considered).  Idol pretty much said all that already, and gpw and Cobra pretty much said the rest of it.  It's interesting and all, but totally inconclusive and nobody can claim that they know where it's going to lead.  Something may need to change in the PC arena, but usually when things need to change, eventually they do.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline gpw11

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #27 on: Thursday, February 14, 2008, 09:22:10 PM »
I for one look forward to only being able to play Bejeweled and The Sims.  I hate choices.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #28 on: Friday, February 15, 2008, 08:16:27 AM »
haha..

Offline Cobra951

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #29 on: Friday, February 15, 2008, 10:35:11 AM »
Why is the thread pointless?  This isn't a political or religious discussion.  Either PC gaming is going down or it isn't.  Online sales either make up the deficit from lower sales in stores, or they don't.  Opinion is irrelevant.  I just want to know what's what, and to discuss why.  If this is pointless, so is the entire games board.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #30 on: Friday, February 15, 2008, 10:51:08 AM »
Yup exactly. I am not sure what is OK to discuss anymore. :P

I mean I missed the first two discussions on this, and the whole thread was triggered by what Cliffy B said. I don't think discussing what major ex PC developers are saying is pointless.

Offline K-man

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #31 on: Friday, February 15, 2008, 11:08:56 AM »
Lets say the 60 million was made up by digital distribution.  These numbers i posted in my thread are still alarming

    * 1998 - $1.7 billion
    * 1999 - $1.9 billion
    * 2000 - $1.78 billion (84.9 million units)
    * 2001 - $1.75 billion (83.6 million units)
    * 2002 - $1.4 billion (61.5 million units)
    * 2003 - $1.2 billion (52.8 million units)
    * 2004 - $1.1 billion (45 million units)
    * 2005 - $953 million (38 million) [5] + $344 million digital sales [6]
    * 2006 - $970 million [7]

The sad thing being that saturation of PCs in home has steadily INCREASED since 1998.  So more people have the potential to play PC games, but yet the numbers have been on a steady decline.

The more developers see their titles sell on consoles, the less they're going to develop their premiere titles for PC.  The culture and attitude has changed for the most part in the past 10 years.  People aren't overly concerned with staying 'on top' of the PC spec game, continually updating their systems to stay current.  With consoles looking (and playing) as good as they do, the diminishing returns no longer warrant the money spent for incremental increase in graphical capabilities.

You're still able to get a graphically superior experience on PC, but that gap has closed to the point to where its almost nonexistant.  And as good as console games look right now, we've barely even tapped the surface of what the PS3 can do, much less the 360.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #32 on: Friday, February 15, 2008, 12:41:28 PM »
You have games that are available online as well as at retail, so there is an excuse that they are selling online which explains the low retail sales. But what about titles that are available only on retail? Their sales aren't being eaten online, so why aren't they selling so well?

Still I stand by the statement that hardcore PC gaming will never die as long as the European market thrives. Crysis has sold a million in Europe, and only taken 2 months. It is still no1 in most of Europe, and is predicted to sell at least 4 million by the end of the year. That's just evidence enough that PC gaming isn't going anywhere.

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You're still able to get a graphically superior experience on PC, but that gap has closed to the point to where its almost nonexistant

hahhahahaa wtf?? I completely disagree with you here. I also have to disagree with your earlier statement from that other thread, about cross platform releases being better on the consoles. In fact I am not even sure where you've come up with that. I've seen this question asked on other forums like 1up and Penny Arcade, and you are most definitely in the minority in your opinion. I am not just talking PC fans here. I've seen most 360 fans comment on how games look and play better on a PC.

So yea I don't know where you'd come up with that, and I can say without doubt that you are wrong.

360 gamers quit PC gaming because their console was an incredible deal, and highly convenient. Today, if given a free exchange, most 360 owners would swap their consoles for a high end PC in a heartbeat.

Like Bill Gates said,"Console gaming will always be but a snapshot of PC hardware."

While consoles at launch look comparable to high end PCs, they don't get any better with age.

The 360 was great deal at the time when the 8800GTX was $600, it isn't really anymore. An 8800GT is about $220 and is 95% capable of what an 8800GTX can do, and is quite capable of outclassing a 360.

Let's start with the game you talked about, Oblivion, which I think you are the first person I've seen say is a better is a better experience on the 360. Again, I can't express my surprise enough, and I am just wondering if you've actually been exposed to PC gaming enough. You don't have to even take my word for it, just ask the question on the general 1up forums, where you will easily find more 360 owners.

So lets start:

Oblivion performance and visuals:


http://www.gamespot.com/features/6147028/index.html

Check out that link.

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A medium spec PC with a decent processor and a mid-range DirectX 9 video card like a GeForce 6600 GT allows you to enable a few more graphics settings like view distance and some shadows. Take it easy on the view distance settings since they will lower the frame rate. The Xbox 360 version of the game looks slightly better overall, though not by much. It also runs smoother, though you can't see that from a still image. You can tweak a mid-range PC to look just as nice, but don't be surprised if frame rates dip into the teens.

There you have it. A 6600GT which is less than an entry level PC video card, especially today, is able to run Oblivion on near 360 levels.
Quote
Oblivion looks better on a high-end PC than on the Xbox 360. Note the additional foliage visible in the background. We matched up resolutions for screenshot comparison purposes here, but a high-end PC with an AMD Athlon FX-60 CPU and GeForce 7900 GTX graphics card can enable all the settings and take resolutions up to 1600x1200 or more and still maintain smooth frame rates. We noticed that the Xbox 360 version had better antialiasing since our PC version couldn't enable HDR and antialiasing at the same time. Of course on the PC version, you can get rid of jaggies the old-fashioned way by jacking up the resolution.

The 7900GTX outclasses the Xbox 360. This is an old article, from a time when the 7900GTX was top of the line.

With an 8800GT (which is twice as fast as a 7900GTX), you can play at a higher resolution than the 360, and can run at three times the grass density, twice the view distance, double the environmental models, and three times the AI population density -- yet still play at 60 fps.

I am not making any of this up. It is actually how I play Oblivon.

PC: 1   XBOX 360: 0

Oblivion controls:

On the 360, you play Oblivion with the 360 controller. On the PC, you can also play with the 360 controller as well as the far superior keyboard/mouse combination, that allows more precision and a lot more keys for more interaction and immersion.

PC: 2   XBOX 360: 0

Modifications:

Remember the drubbing the PC gave the 360 in the visuals department? Well after you install some of the free and easy to install visual modifications, the PC version of Oblivion looks just far more fabulous. I can't even put it into words. You have to see for yourself:

http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?id=41&view=Articles.Detail

It isn't just the visual quality. You've got a far better map, interface, and inventory system. You've got a huge overhaul in sound as well.

And then there are the many numerous gameplay flaws in Oblivion that are fixed. I mean the list is really endless.

What about the 360? Well you have mods, but they suck and they cost money, so -1 to the 360 here.

FINAL SCORE:

PC: 3   XBOX 360: -1

Offline Pugnate

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #33 on: Friday, February 15, 2008, 12:58:52 PM »
Continuing on Xbox 360 games looking as good as PC games.

Here is a little game called Crysis:



There is no way in hell the 360 can manage the same visuals an 8800GT powered PC can, as stated by the developers of Crysis. While they are porting it to the 360, they said they will have to compromise on the visuals.

What about games like Gears of War? Call of Duty 4? Unreal Tournament? They all look better on the PC, with better textures, higher resolutions, anti aliasing etc. And again, the keyboard mouse setup is just superior. The PC is also more capable of holding more players in multiplayer games.

In COD4, you can have 32 player matches on the PC, while the 360 is restricted to half that.



Offline scottws

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #34 on: Friday, February 15, 2008, 01:28:02 PM »
Yeah I'll always take multiplatform games on the PC.  Controls better with kb/m?  Check.  Controls better with a gamepad?  Check.  Plus it almost always looks better on PC, or at the very least can be made to look better later.

Sure, there is something to be said about popping in Madden on a 360 and playing with a friend.  But just because there is that convenience doesn't have anything to do with what FPS games are capable of on PCs vs. consoles.  I can't believe people bought and play UT3 on consoles (to be fair I don't know why they do on PC either, but it makes more sense there).  Or CoD4... maybe that's a better example.

Convenience I think isn't even a truly fair argument.  I bet I can start CoD4 faster on my PC than I could on my 360.  All I do is log in and double-click an icon.  On a 360 you have the whole boot-up time thrown in there as well.  Sure you could say what about CD checks on a PC?  Well you have to put the disc in a console too.

The cost of gaming PCs is an issue sure.  One that people on this board are very aware of and that does affect some purchasing decisions sure.  But if you have the PC, there is almost no reason to own a 360 unless you're a huge Halo fan and can't wait for the eventual PC release.

Offline K-man

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #35 on: Friday, February 15, 2008, 01:31:57 PM »
Pugnate, I can sum up how I feel about your last two posts in 2 sentences.

In 1999 PC games were far superior to their console counterparts, but today that gap is nowhere near as wide.  Crysis is nice, but I'd much rather play a "lesser" version of said game on a 300 dollar console than pay well over a grand to buy a PC that played it at full spec. 

Like I said, diminishing returns.

Also, I find it completely hilarious that you began the thread in support of the idea that PC gaming is dying, and then turning an about-face about halfway through.

Speaking of which, I have never said that computer gaming will "die".  It will always exist in some regard.  However, it's rather hard to dispute the cold, hard fact that console game sales continue to rise while PC sales continue to regress.  And that's not something you can even remotely fully blame on the advent of Digital distribution and the fact that figures are unreported.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #36 on: Friday, February 15, 2008, 01:33:28 PM »
Quote
And as good as console games look right now, we've barely even tapped the surface of what the PS3 can do, much less the 360.

Seriously now my friend, no offense, but are you dreaming? Do you really believe that??

The 360 has hit a wall, and you won't see any improvements over what you have. The PS3 may have some more power on paper, but is very difficult to program for, and is infact getting games that look worse than the 360.

http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/rpg/masseffect/review.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=gssummary&tag=summary%3Breview&page=2

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/833/833640p4.html

Mass Effect:

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There are some technical hitches, however. The framerate can dramatically dip at the worst possible times, and there is a lot of texture pop-in.

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All of this success doesn't come without a cost. The framerate in Mass Effect is as erratic as they come. This isn't something that happens occasionally. It happens incessantly. The game also has issues loading textures in when you enter a new environment. Flat, boring scenery gets filled in with details piece by piece for a few moments each time you load in.

Quake IV:

http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/quake4/review.html

Quote
In addition, the frame rate is sort of a mess. Any time the action gets heated in a large or complex-looking area, the game starts to spin down to a surprisingly low frame rate, regardless of whether you're playing in HD resolution or on a regular TV. At some points, it gets so bad that the whole game starts to slow down, as well. You'll know when that's happening because the rate of fire on your weapons slows way, way down. Even when there's no action onscreen, just viewing the environments is enough to make the game run at a noticeably choppy rate. While there are still some cool-looking areas, the frame rate troubles drag down the entire experience.

I've read about numerous issues with frame rate drops in Gears of War, Assassin's Creed etc. If you want, I can dig up articles on those too.

I am not saying performance in the 360 is bad or anything. I just find it a joke to suggest that visuals will improve on the 360.

As for the PS3, it may have some more power on paper, but it is too difficult to program for. In fact you will never find a game look better on the PS3.

http://www.gamespot.com/features/6162742/

Quote
We expected the PlayStation 3 to ship with several games that first appeared on the Xbox 360, similar to how the Xbox 360 had a lot of Xbox ports at launch. And the PS3 did indeed arrive with a good number of games that originally shipped for the Xbox 360. This gave us the perfect opportunity to compare the graphics on both systems with several cross-platform games. You'd think that the PS3 versions would be exactly the same or slightly superior to the Xbox 360 versions, since many of these games appeared on the 360 months ago, but it seems like developers didn't use the extra time to polish up the graphics for the PS3. We found that the Xbox 360 actually had better graphics in the majority of the games we compared.

What gamespot didn't know at the time was that the PS3 was a nightmare to program for. The majority of cross platform titles to this day look better on the 360.

Here is what John Carmack says:

http://www.xbox365.com/news.cgi?id=GGririiirr05121649

http://www.nordichardware.com/news,1551.html

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John Carmack - PS3 "pain in my ass"
Written by Delph1 16 August 2005 22:04

During an interview with Todd Hollenshead, president at ID Software, US gaming magazine found out what the icon and gamedeveloper John Carmack thought about the two coming game consoles that will power ID Software's latest creation, Quake 4. Carmack's grade for Xbox 360 was "great" but he wasn't convinced by PlayStation 3 where the grade was "pain in my ass". This simply a jugment on how the consoles are to work with when developing games and since Xbox 360 will be launched relatively soon the devkits should be better but at the same we can't say we are surprised the PS3 is hard to master.

Rockstar on the PS3:

http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/50937

Quote
Rockstar product development VP Jeronimo Barerra has revealed that technical issues with the PS3 were partly to blame for last fall's delay of Rockstar North's Grand Theft Auto IV (PS3, X360).

"It's really no surprise to anybody that the PS3 was definitely a contributing factor to that," Barerra told MTV. "Now, we're neck and neck. That's not an issue anymore. But back then that was something we were taking into account."

Grand Theft Auto IV missed its original release window last fall and is now scheduled for release on PS3 and X360 April 29. The Xbox 360 version of GTA4 will be receiving two exclusive downloadable episodes, one before November of 2008 and one after.

At the time of the delay, Rockstar attributed the action to technical issues with both systems, though it was widely speculated that problems with the PlayStation 3 version were the root cause.

Here is EA commenting on the PS3:

EA: PS3 Dev Difficulties Still Impacting Release Dates

http://gaming.monstersandcritics.com/ps3/news/article_1389728.php
http://kotaku.com/351346/playstation-3-development-still-problematic-for-ea
http://ps3.qj.net/EA-still-having-problems-with-PS3-development/pg/49/aid/112767





Offline K-man

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #37 on: Friday, February 15, 2008, 01:39:47 PM »
You're absolutely right I believe it.  God of War II for the PS2 is a great example of how people can pull off great looking games by becoming more efficient when working with a console.  Did you think that 2 years after the PS2's release that it would be capable of pulling something like God of War II off?

Quake 4 was a launch title.

I never disputed PS3 was hard to develop for.  And we will indeed see better looking games when developers get a better feel for it.  There's no reason to believe otherwise.

Offline scottws

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #38 on: Friday, February 15, 2008, 01:46:39 PM »
Like Bill Gates said,"Console gaming will always be but a snapshot of PC hardware."
I thought Bill Gates also said that 640kB of RAM is all we would ever need.

Look, it's clear that console games are outselling PC games.  But is that even a truly fair comparison?  I mean we all know what a console is and what a PC is, but in reality it's more subdivided than that.  I think it would be interesting to find out what CoD4 sold on the PC, the Wii, the Xbox 360, and the PS3.  Did the Wii version, for instance, outsell the PC version?

I mean it's not the like there is a "console version" and a "PC version."  There are four versions.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: PC gaming continues to go down.
« Reply #39 on: Friday, February 15, 2008, 01:57:05 PM »
Quote
In 1999 PC games were far superior to their console counterparts, but today that gap is nowhere near as wide.  Crysis is nice, but I'd much rather play a "lesser" version of said game on a 300 dollar console than pay well over a grand to buy a PC that played it at full spec. 

Umm... again... Oblivion PC vs 360. There is a massive difference.

And it is always the same cycle. When the original Xbox launched, most cross platform games looked nearly the same. But then the gap widened.

Also you are exaggerating the costs here. You can build an 8800GT PC for about $800. Plus PC games in general cost $20 less than 360 games. If you buy 10 console games a year, you've paid $200 extra. But this has nothing to do with my feelings on the retail PC game sales.  :P

Quote
Also, I find it completely hilarious that you began the thread in support of the idea that PC gaming is dying, and then turning an about-face about halfway through.

So I can't have two thoughts, independent of each other, about two separate aspects of a single subject? Must I either completely support PC gaming, or speak completely against it? That's pretty unfair, isn't it?

Here:

1. I think PC gaming is in a lot of trouble, as evidenced by retail sales data.
2. At the same time, I believe PC games are vastly superior.

How is that an about-face? Both those thoughts can't coexist? I am not a fanboy. :P Just because I believe that PC games are superior in general, doesn't mean I don't think PC gaming is in trouble. 

Quote
Speaking of which, I have never said that computer gaming will "die".  It will always exist in some regard.  However, it's rather hard to dispute the cold, hard fact that console game sales continue to rise while PC sales continue to regress.  And that's not something you can even remotely fully blame on the advent of Digital distribution and the fact that figures are unreported.

I agree with that.

Quote
I thought Bill Gates also said that 640kB of RAM is all we would ever need.

Well what he meant by the snapshot comment was that consoles are only as good as the PCs that exist at the time.

Quote
I mean we all know what a console is and what a PC is, but in reality it's more subdivided than that.  I think it would be interesting to find out what CoD4 sold on the PC, the Wii, the Xbox 360, and the PS3.  Did the Wii version, for instance, outsell the PC version?

I will look that up.

From what I understand the 360 version sold 7 times as much than the PC version, while the PS3 sold twice as many.

Quote
Did you think that 2 years after the PS2's release that it would be capable of pulling something like God of War II off?

That's a fair point actually.

Quote
Quake 4 was a launch title.

Alright what about Enemy Territory, Quake Wars. And Mass Effect is pretty new.