Author Topic: How smart are you?  (Read 9568 times)

Offline Ghandi

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How smart are you?
« on: Monday, February 18, 2008, 12:51:42 AM »
This is something that I've grappled with my entire life - the understanding of one's own intelligence and the inherent worth that the individual associates with it. How intelligent am I? And how much does it matter?

Do we all think that we are smart? I assume that I am smarter than many people, but is this ignorance? Youth? Folly?

I only ask because the search for knowledge is linked with an understanding - if we assume we know, then how much will we understand?

I would post more but I don't really know where I'm going with this. Hopefully someone gets enough out of this to post a response.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: How smart are you?
« Reply #1 on: Monday, February 18, 2008, 01:18:35 AM »
Everybody wonders, and a lot of people think they're either smart or stupid, often for no good reason.  Frankly, I think it's pointless to think about.  Some of the most booksmart people ever have lacked even the barest traces of common sense, yet I've known tons of really successful people who were dumb as bricks or didn't have any real natural talent but just forced their way through it all anyway.  *Shrug*  Everyone's different, and you can't necessarily measure everything by the same scale.  What it comes down to is that whether it come in the form of the intelligent or the less intelligent, you know dumb when you see it.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline JacksRag(e)

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Re: How smart are you?
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday, February 19, 2008, 08:28:59 PM »
The way I see it, when we start thinking there's nothing else to learn, we're doomed.  We will never understand all there is to know and that should only make us try harder.

And stuff.

Offline I_Chameleon

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Re: How smart are you?
« Reply #3 on: Friday, February 22, 2008, 01:47:27 AM »
Ghandi,
  I have quite a bit of expertise on the subject of intelligence, as discussed in both psychology and philosophy, and I'd be glad to share. First, though: you mentioned that you have grappled with this issue your entire life. Why? I'm not trying to sound confrontational or angry or disapproving at all, here. I'm just curious. Since you are the poser of the question, I take it that you are either simply unsure of the answer, or you are ambivalent about it. However the case stands on the truth values of the propositions in question, something else is clear: knowing whether ((knowing how intelligent one is) ought to be important to oneself) is important to you. Another thing that your first sentence suggests is that this curiosity has persisted for quite a long time. According to Princeton Philosopher Emeritus Harry G. Frankfurt, the very definition of caring about something is founded on wanting to hold it important over a long period of time. So, in brief, you care about whether we ought to care about our own intelligence.

  Even though I really want to continue typing, my eyes are shutting on their own now. I think this is a good point to pause this conversation, and get some feedback. I don't have enough information in the post to figure out what kind of answer you're looking for. I have many possible answers that I can offer, and varying levels of detail of explanation and description. Ask more direct questions, and more specific questions, and I might be able to provide you with more detailed answers as well.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: How smart are you?
« Reply #4 on: Friday, February 22, 2008, 02:20:06 AM »
This is evidence enough that this isn't cools. The entire paragraph has no mention of boobies.

Offline Ghandi

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Re: How smart are you?
« Reply #5 on: Friday, February 22, 2008, 08:37:29 AM »
Ghandi,
  I have quite a bit of expertise on the subject of intelligence, as discussed in both psychology and philosophy, and I'd be glad to share. First, though: you mentioned that you have grappled with this issue your entire life. Why? I'm not trying to sound confrontational or angry or disapproving at all, here. I'm just curious. Since you are the poser of the question, I take it that you are either simply unsure of the answer, or you are ambivalent about it. However the case stands on the truth values of the propositions in question, something else is clear: knowing whether ((knowing how intelligent one is) ought to be important to oneself) is important to you. Another thing that your first sentence suggests is that this curiosity has persisted for quite a long time. According to Princeton Philosopher Emeritus Harry G. Frankfurt, the very definition of caring about something is founded on wanting to hold it important over a long period of time. So, in brief, you care about whether we ought to care about our own intelligence.

  Even though I really want to continue typing, my eyes are shutting on their own now. I think this is a good point to pause this conversation, and get some feedback. I don't have enough information in the post to figure out what kind of answer you're looking for. I have many possible answers that I can offer, and varying levels of detail of explanation and description. Ask more direct questions, and more specific questions, and I might be able to provide you with more detailed answers as well.

Truth be told, I was pretty intoxicated when I made this thread. I don't really know what I was going for. I think that I was getting at how our perceived intelligence of ourselves shapes what we are willing to learn and understand. So someone that is intelligent who thinks that they are really smart would learn less than someone who is intelligent but thinks that they are stupid. In this way, the perception or mindset of intelligence shapes the reality more than...the reality. If that makes any sense.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: How smart are you?
« Reply #6 on: Friday, February 22, 2008, 12:45:41 PM »
Intelligence from the standpoint of academia is a completely different animal from street smarts.  That became obvious to me as I tried to survive my early teenage years.  When I was a kid, I was told I was very smart.  I tested very smart.  So why did I feel like the slowest guy in the crowd?  The other kids were fish swimming in the big blue sea, while I was treading water like a puppy.  It took me until nearly the end of high school to learn to swim well enough, and I never felt up to par with the crowds that make it all look so easy.

I don't think intelligence is understood well at all.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: How smart are you?
« Reply #7 on: Friday, February 22, 2008, 12:58:37 PM »
By Chris Taylor's definition, if you can play an RTS game, then you are a freakin' genius.

Offline I_Chameleon

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Re: How smart are you?
« Reply #8 on: Friday, February 22, 2008, 02:54:12 PM »
   Carol Dweck and her associates did an insightful experiement with high shool students in Hong Kong. A group of students that were interested in improving their English skills (a valued skill in Hong Kong) were given a set of tasks that the students were predetermined to be able to solve successfully, and as expected, all of the students succeeded in solving the task. One third of the students were praised for their intelligence, one third for their effort, and the control group was praised for their 'successful performance' or some such (which is hardly praise at all). After the praise, they were asked to choose the next set of tasks for themselves.
   The results: The praised-for-intelligence group tended to choose tasks similar to those that they were familiar with already. The praised-for-effort group tended to choose more challenging tasks. Also, the "intelligent" group performed worse on tasks of equal difficulty to their original tasks, whereas the "hard-working" group performed better than they originally had.
   Now here's the kicker: All of these students were asked to write a letter about the experiment and their own results on the experiment to an anonymous student that they will never see (it was something like, "write about your experience to RandomStudent in RandomCountry!"). 40% of the intelligent-praise students LIED about their mark.
   What does this tell us? The first group associated their success to their intelligence. The second group assoicated their success to their effort. Dweck's hypothesis is something like this: Since the students thought that intelligence is a fixed resource, and wanted to improve or maintain their performance levels, they ended up engaging in ego-management strategies, such as choosing easier tasks, and even lying to fictitious schoolchildren. The effort-praised students were given the suggestion that their effort was the source of their success, and therefore increased the amount of effort they were investing in the tasks.
   So, self-image matters, for sure, and to strongly associate degree of intelligence with degree of personal worth is a big mistake.

References
Dweck, C. (2002). In R. Sternberg, (Ed.) Why Smart People Can Be So Stupid. Yale University Press.

Offline Xessive

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Re: How smart are you?
« Reply #9 on: Monday, February 25, 2008, 05:05:53 AM »
By Chris Taylor's definition, if you can play an RTS game, then you are a freakin' genius.
Hahahaha Chris really hit a nerve didn't he :P

There's a difference between the acquisition of knowledge and the application of knowledge. Some people are better at gathering information, others are better at using it.


Offline Pugnate

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Re: How smart are you?
« Reply #10 on: Monday, February 25, 2008, 05:22:56 AM »
You could always take an IQ test.

Offline Xessive

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Re: How smart are you?
« Reply #11 on: Monday, February 25, 2008, 06:00:48 AM »
IQ tests are ok, but I always feel awkward about them. I'm not that curious to know because I don't believe we can really put a number on how we think. I went with a group of friends and I took one about 6 years ago; I scored 135. Which is apparently good. I was constantly questioning what it measured against (how is that defined).

I took another one early last year and I got 144. That just goes to show that these numbers are generally arbitrary and don't mean much. If anything it's just a measurement of how well you can gather information, process it, and respond to it. I can assure you I am not that smart, at least I don't believe it.

In the end it doesn't matter how smart or how strong you are, it is how adaptable you are that counts. Right?

Offline Pugnate

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Re: How smart are you?
« Reply #12 on: Monday, February 25, 2008, 09:14:47 AM »
There is one on facebook. Take it.

Offline Xessive

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Re: How smart are you?
« Reply #13 on: Monday, February 25, 2008, 11:27:34 PM »
There is one on facebook. Take it.
Haha I ought to :P I doubt it's as accurate as a Mensa test but they're fun! hehe

Offline poomcgoo

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Re: How smart are you?
« Reply #14 on: Thursday, February 28, 2008, 06:10:38 AM »
As I see it, there is "smart" and there is "educated."  People can fall under either, neither, or even both categories.  A naturally smart person has the ability to grasp things more easily than most.  An educated person doesn't necessarily have to be naturally smart, but they've acquired a good understanding of things through work, research, reading, etc...  Educated people can often be much smarter than naturally intelligent people simply due to the fact that they have a larger base of knowledge.  Some may not.  "Smart" is a very subjective term, so pinpointing how smart somebody is can be nearly impossible.  I suppose the most naturally intelligent person alive could have the potential to be the smartest person alive should they apply themselves to learning more than everybody else; however, since no person can really know everything, I don't see how one could determine who "knows the most," making it pretty much impossible.

It's tough to explain.  I know a number of naturally brilliant people, but at the same time I know a number of highly educated people who may not be as naturally intelligent, but are absolutely "smarter" by anyone's definition.

Offline Xessive

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Re: How smart are you?
« Reply #15 on: Friday, February 29, 2008, 11:34:35 PM »
Good observation Poomcgoo. I agree with you.

Offline I_Chameleon

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Re: How smart are you?
« Reply #16 on: Thursday, March 20, 2008, 02:26:55 PM »
IQ tests are ok, but I always feel awkward about them. I'm not that curious to know because I don't believe we can really put a number on how we think. I went with a group of friends and I took one about 6 years ago; I scored 135. Which is apparently good. I was constantly questioning what it measured against (how is that defined).

I took another one early last year and I got 144. That just goes to show that these numbers are generally arbitrary and don't mean much. If anything it's just a measurement of how well you can gather information, process it, and respond to it. I can assure you I am not that smart, at least I don't believe it.

In the end it doesn't matter how smart or how strong you are, it is how adaptable you are that counts. Right?

Xessive: IQ is certainly an incomplete measure of intelligence. There is no doubt about that. Also, you're right in pointing out that attaching a single number to a person's intelligence is far too simplistic to be meaningful. Also, there is an important difference between a person's performance on a single test, and that person's long-term competence, since even something as apparently trivial as eating a candy bar before an IQ test can cause statistically significant variation in performance.

To clarify, IQ typically measures efficiency and speed of processing, working memory capacity, etc. These are some of the aspects of what many people call our System 2 cognitive processes: those cognitive abilities that are language-like, sequential, rule-based, slow, complex, and linear. System 2 is also referred to as the "cool" system, or the "know" system. IQ tests typically don't do a great job of measuring differences in System 1 performance: the "hot" system, or "go" system, as some like to call it. It has much more to do with parallel distributed processing, real-time adaptation to problems, and diffuse, intuitive, fast, simple, emotion-informed, perception-like pattern recognition. A person can have a well-developed System 1 without necessarily having a well-developed System 2, or vice versa.

The reason why only these simple System 2 measures are used in is because we are *able* to determine them in a somewhat objective way. That's mostly because it's easier to pick apart something linear, such as language, as opposed to something non-linear, like an image or proprioceptive feedback. This helps make clear the specific *way* that IQ tests are incomplete. By ignoring all those aspects of human cognition that scientists have not yet been able to correlate with reliable, observable measurements in either behaviour or localized neuronal activity, proponents of IQ tests suggest (either explicitly, or simply mistakenly or carelessly) that those measures provide an exhaustive account of individual differences in intelligence. They don't, and Cognitive Scientists that aren't behaviourists like B. F. Skinner (i.e. most of us) think that this kind of presumption is nothing short of friggin' retarded. However, as anyone that has studied long-term memory consolidation will be happy to point out, changing the opinions of the scientific establishment does become increasingly difficult (and therefore takes longer to accomplish) as its average age increases.

It is becoming increasingly clear to a lot of younger Cognitive Scientists, however, that concepts such as knowledge and intelligence have been confounded, obfuscated, and mis-analyzed over the past century of shock-the-rat-style behaviourism. The areas of expertise that I am currently familiarizing myself with include intelligence, expertise, insight, problem solving, and wisdom. So far, my review of scientific, philosophical, and folk (i.e. religious and non-theistic traditional) discussions on these topics paint a very disjoint picture of their respective concepts. Many philosophical discussions about thinking and thought processes are largely neuroscientifically implausible, whereas just as many psychological theories on the very same topics are quite arrogantly philosophically uninformed, to the point of being outright fallacious. Yet somehow, contemporary scholars in their respective fields seem to remain comfortably insular and well-funded.

Although I still haven't finished my term essay on the many, many problems with IBM Yale psychologist Robert J. Sternberg's "balance theory of wisdom", one thing I can say is that your comment about adaptiveness suggests that you're on the right track. As a brief, inchoate suggestion, the three main categories of cognitive attributes that differ from person to person and appear not to be reducible to each other might be knowledge, intelligence, and wisdom. To be knowledgeable, smart, and wise are three very different things. Although it is certainly true that each of these aspects do help the other two out in major ways, it does not seem to be the case that, for example, wisdom is simply a specialized kind of knowledge, or that intelligence itself can be improved by acquiring more knowledge.

Time to grab a bite to eat before my Theoretical Psychology class: remember, kids... low glucose levels have been correlated with ego depletion and reduction of ability to self-regulate.

More talk on thought to follow soon.

Offline scottws

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Re: How smart are you?
« Reply #17 on: Friday, March 21, 2008, 12:10:10 PM »
As I see it, there is "smart" and there is "educated."  People can fall under either, neither, or even both categories.  A naturally smart person has the ability to grasp things more easily than most.  An educated person doesn't necessarily have to be naturally smart, but they've acquired a good understanding of things through work, research, reading, etc...  Educated people can often be much smarter than naturally intelligent people simply due to the fact that they have a larger base of knowledge.  Some may not.  "Smart" is a very subjective term, so pinpointing how smart somebody is can be nearly impossible.  I suppose the most naturally intelligent person alive could have the potential to be the smartest person alive should they apply themselves to learning more than everybody else; however, since no person can really know everything, I don't see how one could determine who "knows the most," making it pretty much impossible.

It's tough to explain.  I know a number of naturally brilliant people, but at the same time I know a number of highly educated people who may not be as naturally intelligent, but are absolutely "smarter" by anyone's definition.
I think you've explained it very well.  I am one of these "smart" people you speak of.  I pick up things quickly and easily, and use them effectively when I am required.  However, I'm sort of the crammer type.  While I had the highest average in my elite high school's calculus class, I would have no idea what to do with a a calculus problem today.  That said, I would be able to quickly reacquaint myself if need be.

Now I don't know about gpw's ability to quickly and easily pick up information, but he is clearly more "educated" at least on some topics.  Like his knowledge of history and the workings of the United States political institution far exceeds my own, and he's not even a resident or citizen of this country.

Offline Ghandi

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Re: How smart are you?
« Reply #18 on: Friday, March 21, 2008, 12:18:54 PM »
He's probably a Canadian spy or something. Sly little son of a bitch hiding up north stealing our timber....*shakes fist and waits for lame explanation about how the timber is "theirs"*

Sorry that's all that I'm adding to the discussion for now. I'm too lazy to type out a response on the matter.

Offline W7RE

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Re: How smart are you?
« Reply #19 on: Friday, March 21, 2008, 09:19:35 PM »
I think you've explained it very well.  I am one of these "smart" people you speak of.  I pick up things quickly and easily, and use them effectively when I am required.  However, I'm sort of the crammer type.  While I had the highest average in my elite high school's calculus class, I would have no idea what to do with a a calculus problem today.  That said, I would be able to quickly reacquaint myself if need be.

I feel like I'm the same way. I've always done poorly in school, getting B's and C's all through middle and high school. I rarely did my homework or studied, and always just barely scraped by. Hoever, I could ace a test just based on what information I absorbed during lectures (without taking notes), and maybe a 5 minute cram session in class right before the test, or maybe the night before. I seem to grasp concepts pretty easily, but unless I really care about them, I forget about them after not using the information for a while.

I think my situation is that I'm generally intelligent, at least above average I'd say, but I have emotional and self esteem issues that keep me from wanting to push myself and learn things. This is how you get someone who can't hold a job or finish 4 years of college (art college, I might add), but I  know detailed information and numbers about my WoW player class, and have downloaded and even written spreadsheets and databases of equipment and dps information about it.

I actually thought for a while that I might have a mild form of autism because I kind of live in my own little world. I put very little efort into anything, and even zone out on long conversations about things that I'm directly involved with. But when I get into something, I change completely. The schizoid personality disorder I thought I had for a while also fit, because they're described as liking to escape to a fantasy world in their head. I do that a lot, I think of anythng but what's going on. I've lived where I do now for 2 years, and lived here for 1 year previously. I couldn't tell you how to get to the nearest grovery store though, because I've never driven here, and when I ride in a car I zone out and stare out the window at nothing, drifting off and thinking about anything but where I am.

So yea, I feel like I'm a case of someone who's intelligent, but has a severe lack of knowledge and experience, stemming from a mental state that has me consciously shutting myself off from the world around me.

Offline scottws

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Re: How smart are you?
« Reply #20 on: Friday, March 21, 2008, 09:41:40 PM »
Haha, I'm the same way about the driving thing.  I only really learn how to get somewhere by driving myself.  If I'm riding with or following someone, I won't remember how to get there.

Offline I_Chameleon

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Re: How smart are you?
« Reply #21 on: Monday, March 24, 2008, 02:29:34 PM »
As I see it, there is "smart" and there is "educated."  People can fall under either, neither, or even both categories.  A naturally smart person has the ability to grasp things more easily than most.  An educated person doesn't necessarily have to be naturally smart, but they've acquired a good understanding of things through work, research, reading, etc...  Educated people can often be much smarter than naturally intelligent people simply due to the fact that they have a larger base of knowledge.  Some may not.  "Smart" is a very subjective term, so pinpointing how smart somebody is can be nearly impossible.  I suppose the most naturally intelligent person alive could have the potential to be the smartest person alive should they apply themselves to learning more than everybody else; however, since no person can really know everything, I don't see how one could determine who "knows the most," making it pretty much impossible.

It's tough to explain.  I know a number of naturally brilliant people, but at the same time I know a number of highly educated people who may not be as naturally intelligent, but are absolutely "smarter" by anyone's definition.

Even amongst psychological research circles, people unabashedly equivocate between these terms. "Smart" is a horribly colloquial term, and although it is often used synonymously with "intelligent", there are times when it just as easily seems to mean "knowledgeable".

I tend not to use the word smart at all, because of this very underspecificity. Instead, If a person does not have the requisite knowledge to solve a problem, then a more accurate term for his lack is, literally, ignorance. He is ignorant of the knowledge he needs. However, if a person lacks the requisite processing power to solve a given problem, than the problem she faces is not ignorance, but rather a dearth of intelligence, i.e. stupidity. Unfortunately, both "ignorant" and "stupid" have a strongly pejorative tone to them, and are therefore un-P.C. However, ignorance and stupidity do happen, and when they do, they certainly reflect a frowned-upon state of affairs with respect to the problem solver.

The key is to remember that people can change. Time passes, people learn, neurons grow, synapses strengthen, etc. In other words, if a particular person said or did something stupidly or ignorantly, and the person's history is unknown to us, then our claim cannot go beyond "he acted ignorantly" and become "he is ignorant". That is an inductive move that lacks sufficient justification. To treat each instance of behaviour as an unalterable testament of a person's performance is uncalled for.

poomcgoo: In those parts of your post above where you use "natually smart", I assume you mean "naturally intelligent". By this, I mean a person that is has a greater natural propensity to think efficiently and resiliently, so that she is better able to anticipate, predict, cope with and plan for problems than other people. Is this a fair reading of what you mean?

The reason why I ask is that there is quite a bit of cutting-edge neuroscience that has debunked the idea that neurons stop growing past early adulthood, and that our genes have less to do with an individual's maximum-achievable level of intelligence that we once thought. That surely doesn't mean, however, that a child with a pervasive disorder like cerebral palsy will be able to bounce back and become a rocket science: I am not suggesting that such conditions do not occur. Instead, I'm trying to point out that after a closer investigation of the relationship between environment and genetic predispositions suggests that people really do co-develop with their environments to a profound degree. Our neocortex is plastic enough to strongly call into question whether "naturally smart" has much meaning at all. If an infant's brain has a complete subcortical apparatus in place at birth, and does not have any particular hindrances to normal development, then the environment is what distinguishes that future-person's brain from any other. Everything from sense-input to disease changes the very shape and configuration of a person's brain... even the thalamic feedback of one's own motor signals.

In a very real way, the shape of your neocortex *is* your memory.

Offline Xessive

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Re: How smart are you?
« Reply #22 on: Thursday, March 27, 2008, 05:17:59 AM »
Thanks for sharing and the clarifications I_Chameleon! :)

Who are you, by the way?

Offline Cobra951

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Re: How smart are you?
« Reply #23 on: Thursday, March 27, 2008, 07:01:44 AM »
He's been around a long time, though not so much in recent years.

Offline scottws

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Re: How smart are you?
« Reply #24 on: Thursday, March 27, 2008, 08:43:18 AM »
Oooh!  Oooh!  I know!  I know!

Offline Ghandi

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Re: How smart are you?
« Reply #25 on: Thursday, March 27, 2008, 09:51:01 AM »
* Ghandi slaps scottws


Quiet!

Offline Cobra951

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Re: How smart are you?
« Reply #26 on: Thursday, March 27, 2008, 11:24:00 AM »
 ???  OK, what shenanigans are you guys pulling now.  Is this an experiment related to the topic?

Offline Ghandi

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Re: How smart are you?
« Reply #27 on: Thursday, March 27, 2008, 01:00:15 PM »
Yep. The experiment is "how dumb are you?" ;)

Offline Cobra951

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Re: How smart are you?
« Reply #28 on: Thursday, March 27, 2008, 03:43:50 PM »
I be a dumbass yo!

Offline Xessive

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Re: How smart are you?
« Reply #29 on: Friday, March 28, 2008, 10:55:08 AM »
Haha I R Baboon!

Offline poomcgoo

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Re: How smart are you?
« Reply #30 on: Monday, May 05, 2008, 07:16:47 AM »
By "smart" i mean "smart."  Like your brain is naturally good at doing shit.  You don't need big words to understand the basic concept of what "smart" is.  "Naturally smart," could be defined by what you said, but it's not to say that your environment shapes your brain just like anything else.  Some people are just born with a higher capacity to succeed in that way.  Think of two individuals raised in the exact same environment with the exact same opportunities.  One of the two will be smarter.  It could be for any reason down to sheer laziness.  The human factor here is what makes it impossible to predict.  None of us are smart enough to figure it out anyways.  You're overthinking this -- not very smart my friend!

PS. After reading "smart" so many times in this thread, it's starting to look funny.  Ever get that?

Offline I_Chameleon

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Re: How smart are you?
« Reply #31 on: Tuesday, May 06, 2008, 09:42:47 PM »
You just called me not very smart on the serious forum.
What are the brain functions that work better in a person that is smarter, when compared to a person that is not as smart?

Offline poomcgoo

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Re: How smart are you?
« Reply #32 on: Wednesday, May 07, 2008, 10:36:31 AM »
Actually, I said overthinking this was not very smart but really, arguing about this is probably even less smart.