Topic: CA Courts - Credential Needed to Homeschool

[sirean_syan]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/03/07/MNJDVF0F1.DTL

So, I think this is something of a big deal. Whether I agree with homeschooling or not, the fact that courts are now saying only a credentialed person may teach a child seems extreme and kills the sort of rights people should have about the decisions they make in raising their child.

For one thing, teaching credentials in CA are pretty over the top these days and the requirements to get them are one of the reasons I believe we're having problems getting new teachers. Both of my brother's did this recently and they took years to complete and really put them through the ringer. At that rate, most people who could do it end up going elsewhere and making more money more easily. To expect to have a lot of people willing to do this, much less just a parent who doesn't trust the school system is pretty ludicrous.

The other, real, issue is simply squashing rights of parents. Children may be provided an education by the state, but shouldn't parents have the right to avoid it if they feel they have a better alternative? You can argue all day about the actual quality of a homeschool education, but that doesn't change the issue.

I suppose I would agree with this if some sort of law was passed where a homeschooled child must submit some form of progress as the years go bad before they're told to go to a traditional school (or, at least traditional in the modern sense). I suppose a court ruling is only the first step though, they don't come with mandates the way a law would. Still, this doesn't seem like a step in the right direction.

[idolminds]

Wow, thats pretty crazy.

[scottws]

Yeah, seems like a bad idea.  CA is basically saying that homeschooled children don't get a proper education and the state needs to teach them.

Honestly though, it doesn't surprise me.  The average views expressed in CA are ridiculously out-of-step with the average views in the rest of the country on a lot of issues it seems.  I'm surprised people in the state haven't clamored for secession from the United States.

Anyway, I think homeschooling is pretty ridiculous.  The people who homeschool their children usually have really bizarre views and brainwash their kids.  But I think you're right, the point is that it gives parents the choice on how they want to raise their kids, which I think is important.

I'm sure CA had good intentions here, but it seems to be stepping on the toes of the parents a little too much.  There have to be other ways to fix the poor education Americans get these days.

Edit:  I had a huge anti-CA rant in there but decided it was a little to inflammatory, so I took it out.

[beo]

i do IT stuff for the local education authority - specifically to do with kids that are either kicked out of school, or are messed up emotionally and can't handle things. if the parents are unwilling to get them to an education centre or enrol them in distance learning (all paid for), they can be prosecuted. an easy way for the parents to avoid legal action is to homeschool. most of them don't do a very good job. if you've got parents that have already basically failed with their kids taking over as their only educators and adult influence, it can lead to bad results. on top of being undereducated, they are often very poor socially because of their lack of peer contact. i'm not saying it's all bad, for some families it's great. the kids come out of the experience perfectly well adjusted and with a better than average education - unfortunately it's relatively uncommon here.

not especially relevant, but as an aside, i recently attended a seminar which touched on homeschooling. heard a story about a local mother who homeschooled her two kids. mother wasn't entirely all there, but they submitted proof that the kids were learning well. authorities just let them get on with it, a few months later neighbours complained of a smell coming from the house. police went to investigate and found the whole family living entirely in the living room, with the corpse of the sister in one of the chairs. she had been there for around three months. not a great story to base an argument on, but nice and fucked up all the same.

[Cobra951]

I could counter with Columbine and the disturbingly frequent repeats, but that's equally skewed in the opposite direction.

I tend to agree that homeschooling can't possibly expose children to the entire social experience they are supposed to be getting.  Unfortunately, the social experience normally schooled children get is often worse than none at all.  This is a big motivator to parents who insist on controlling all of their children's experiences, something that can't happen if the kids are out of their hands daily.  I'm all for an objective standard in education.  That, rather than the education credentials of the parents, should be the focus.  If homeschooled children can pass the same standard tests normally schooled children do, that should be the end of it.  Those who can't, do need to be educated by the state.

[Quemaqua]

Total bullshit.

Firstly, be careful not to be grossly misinformed about the kind of people who generally homeschool their kids.  By and large they aren't crazy nutjobs out of touch with reality, or people who can't control their delinquent kids, most of them are normal parents scared to death of sending their kids into the state-sponsored slaughterhouses that pass for schools in this fucking pit.  And yeah, obviously there are situations where you have lousy parents who screw up their kids by providing poor education, but it's pretty rare that those cases actually matter.  If the parents are really that lousy, chances are their kids aren't even trying to learn anything in school anyway, so who cares where they spend their time not learning?  Simply sending your kid to a state school doesn't provide *any* assurances that they'll turn out decent or learn anything, and the conditions are so laughably bad here in a lot of cases that if you aren't an idiot, chances are very good that you'll give your kid everything they need without the extreme risk of sending them to one of these pathetic public schools.

There are plenty of kids who come out of public schools fine, but take a look at the youth of the bay area.  Come out here, spend some time in the city, get to know these people, and you'll realize that there's something incredibly wrong with the system.  It just doesn't work reliably, and we've got some of the most worthless children you'll ever meet in your life out here.  And it isn't like it's just a few, this is en masse, and it's a fundamental problem that affects a whole lot of other things.

Anyway, I obviously have strong feelings on this issue.  But this is total crap and I'm obscenely angry right now.  Make no mistake, this has absolutely nothing to do with education.  It has everything to do with those in power who will go to any lengths to squelch personal belief and force their people to accept their own dogma, be it scholastic or otherwise.

[Cobra951]

"A primary purpose of the educational system is to train school children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and the nation as a means of protecting the public welfare," the judge wrote, quoting from a 1961 case on a similar issue.

You are right.  Indoctrination is openly acknowledged right there.  If "good citizenship" includes leftist social agendas--and you know it does in California--your kids will be steered accordingly.

[Ghandi]

I question the accusation that indoctrination exists in any meaningful (read: unavoidable) way. The qualities in your quote are indoctrinated more heavily from the influence of parents than from any educational system.

The state of our education system today (from my personal experience) is laughable. Most of my teachers were terrible. I learned very little after elementary school that couldn't have been taught to me in a couple of years. I worry more about the social aspects of home schooling than the education itself. I mean, how can you not pass high school? Truly it baffles me.

[Quemaqua]

For most homeschoolers, social stuff is just fine.  So you aren't stuffed in a room with 50 other people.  Big deal.  Most people who do this have groups that meet regularly to do occasional group lessons, science projects, field trips, or just to hang out.  During my homeschooling days we went to a park every Friday and met with about 10 or 15 families.  Hung out, had some BBQ, played basketball, whatever.  Frankly, all the social interaction I ever got when I was at an actual school was horrible.  That's when I did stuff I shouldn't have.  We had no supervision, nobody really cared what we did one way or the other, and all the kids were terrible, even the ones I considered my friends.  And this wasn't even public school, it was private.  I had friends in public schools, and the stuff they got into was yet a step or two beyond everything going on at mine.  The homeschooled kids wanted to get in trouble just as much as the others, but they were always supervised and couldn't do a damned thing about it.  Everything ran smoothly, the kids always ended up having fun, and I was able to get an education tailored to my own needs instead of some arbitrary curriculum someone who never even met me decided must be best for me.  What's not to like?

[Ghandi]

Well, I wasn't knocking it. But school is the main social aspect of children, so home schooled children do need to get that elsewhere. I don't see that as a major obstacle - just something that needs to be done. For me, the majority of my friends came outside of school. Most of my good friends came from the neighborhood.

But setting up a high standard for education is a little silly when many teachers (at least in my experience) were terrible inadequate to begin with.

[nickclone]

When it comes to education I don't think anyone not qualified should be able to teach anyone.

[WindAndConfusion]

I'll ignore the pointless California-bashing and just stick to the OP:

For one thing, teaching credentials in CA are pretty over the top these days and the requirements to get them are one of the reasons I believe we're having problems getting new teachers.

That's the impression I got from my mother and sister, both of whom have worked as teachers in California.

The other, real, issue is simply squashing rights of parents. Children may be provided an education by the state, but shouldn't parents have the right to avoid it if they feel they have a better alternative? You can argue all day about the actual quality of a homeschool education, but that doesn't change the issue.

Parents don't own their kids. They have an obligation to provide their children with a proper education, and if they refuse to meet this obligation, they don't have the right to be parents.

That said, I've seen the curriculum to get a teaching credential in California. The textbooks are a joke. They're a mix of discredited pop psychology, meaningless verbage, broken logic, incompetent scholarship, more meaningless verbage, and the occasional uncited statistic. They remind me of those stupid fucking essays I had to write in high school, only if they were written by someone who believed the shit he was saying.

Having the patience to wade through that bullshit and get a credential almost makes someone seem less qualified to be a teacher.

I suppose a court ruling is only the first step though, they don't come with mandates the way a law would.

You know what force of law means, don't you?

[K-man]

When it comes to education I don't think anyone not qualified should be able to teach anyone.

Exactly how I feel.

[Quemaqua]

Yeah, because your government does such a great fucking job of screening people.

[K-man]

My fiancee is in the process of finishing up her education degree, and I can certainly vouch that the government has some pretty strict guidelines as far as teachers are concerned.  It's not easy by any stretch.  She's had to pass multiple exams, practicums, and student teaching sessions before she can even apply for licensure.  Then the actual screening process adds even more hurdles to jump through.  So yeah, the government actually does do a pretty good job of screening people.  Is it infallible?  No, not by any means.  However, the screening process and the process leading up to that is no walk in the park either

[K-man]

Course admittedly I'm biased too because I personally believe home schooling is a crock of shit.  But that's a personal belief and has no place in this discussion.

And I'm not saying public education doesn't have shortfalls either.  A lot of the blame is to be placed on the arbitrary standards that are placed upon the public school system and what teachers are and aren't allowed to teach/do.  They're basically conditioned to teach students the things needed to pass an exam.  The good teachers will teach other meaningful things.  The mediocre ones will teach the bare minimum.

I went to high school in a small town.  My graduating class was 68 strong.  It was a positive experience, as I had teachers all through high school that pushed us to do well.  But my experience can say no more about the public school system as a whole than someone that had a horrible experience.

[Quemaqua]

I was homeschooled and I graduated high school two years early.  And we live in a nation with some of the least intelligent kids ever.  So yeah, I'm always glad when someone has a positive experience with public school, but if you lived here I guarantee you you'd change your tune.  The schools here are, in no uncertain terms, garbage.

[gpw11]

I don't think you can fairly say that home school is shit from a traditional educational standpoint, but then again I don't really know how it works where you guys are.  I assume there are still the standardized tests you have to pass in order to progress and eventually graduate?  That's generally how it works here. Purely from what you learn I can't see it being any more of a joke than public high school, which I've always thought was more based on social interaction anyways.   Private school, now that's a joke.

Either way, unless you're going to this school:

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2927048

I don't think it would have any negative affect on your future.

[Ghandi]

And I'm not saying public education doesn't have shortfalls either.  A lot of the blame is to be placed on the arbitrary standards that are placed upon the public school system and what teachers are and aren't allowed to teach/do.  They're basically conditioned to teach students the things needed to pass an exam.

Most certainly. My sister teaches elementary school and the main credential that they are based on is the test scores at the end of the year, which are dictated by No Child Left Behind. The policy is absolutely idiotic. Everyone in the education system knows it. I mean, teachers don't teach the first 3 weeks of school because there is a preliminary test after 3 weeks. That preliminary test is compared to the end of the year test to judge improvement. The more you teach them the first three weeks, the less the discrepancy between the two, and that isn't good for your end of year review.

Goddamn politicians don't have a clue how to educate our children. Bunch of fucking morons.

[gpw11]

I know that part of the problem here is the teachers themselves.  Most are just teachers because all of a sudden they hit 30 with a liberal arts degree and no real direction so they took the easy route, sold their soul, took some classes and entered a profession where they knew they'd always have a job, could probably bank like 60 k for working three quarters of the year and got a wicked pension.

[K-man]

could probably bank like 60 k for working three quarters of the year and got a wicked pension.

The teachers here are lucky to start out at 30k.