Author Topic: Left 4 Dead 2 announced  (Read 36261 times)

Offline Xessive

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #80 on: Saturday, June 06, 2009, 06:32:04 AM »
Let me guess: Versus Survival Mode or Time Attack (see how fast you can get through an area).

Offline MysterD

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #81 on: Saturday, June 06, 2009, 07:20:23 AM »
Let me guess: Versus Survival Mode or Time Attack (see how fast you can get through an area).

Yeah, probably. ;)

I'd rather them add more campaigns, myself -- since I think that's the best aspect of the game.

Offline MysterD

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #82 on: Saturday, June 06, 2009, 09:06:24 AM »

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #83 on: Saturday, June 06, 2009, 09:46:29 AM »
Just watch this awesome L4D2 video here...


hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha


oh my god


oh god


i haven't laughed this hard in ever


ever


ever


hahahah... that was just so fucking hilarious....


that was so perfect... it was the perfect video. Every fucking line was so funny.

oh my god.

I swear to god I have tears in my eyes from laughing.

Offline Xessive

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #84 on: Saturday, June 06, 2009, 11:18:49 AM »
HAHAHA I laughed my ass off! ;D

Offline gpw11

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #85 on: Saturday, June 06, 2009, 02:23:01 PM »
I was thinking that this was petty gay, but the reaction was fuelled more by perpetual hatred for Valve rather than anything else.  There's definitely reason to complain here, but why all the hate for Valve constantly?  I think they're given more credit than they are due much of the time and Steam is indeed pretty lame at times but they do have a wicked track record and STEAM does have it's uses and benefits.   Don't get me wrong - I'm not a huge Valve fan by any means, but I can certainly see why they're such a big deal.

All that aside, I was kind of thinking that while this is pretty weak, it was also overblown.  And then I watched that video and realized that they never fixed the match making.  What the fuck?

Offline Xessive

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #86 on: Saturday, June 06, 2009, 04:03:19 PM »
Much of L4D is still in a substandard state.

There was always an air of disdain for Valve from a lot of people. This case is just an opportunity for it to vent out. Unfortunately it can sometimes overshadow the legitimate complaints and quarrels.

Valve are testing a business model with this: will the majority of the current customers buy into this?

I certainly hope not, at least if not for anything but the mere principle of it.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #87 on: Saturday, June 06, 2009, 04:16:07 PM »
We've given our reasons for Valve hate plenty of times.  If you don't agree with them, fine, but I don't understand why everyone always asks "Why the hate?" as though it's somehow incomprehensible.  You've heard the reasons.  If you don't think they're a big deal, that's cool, but our reasons haven't changed, and it generally seems that we only amass more of them as the company continues to do exactly the same kinds of things that have pissed us off in the past.

But no, the reaction isn't fueled by Valve hate.  It should be plainly obvious by looking at the gigantic number of people signing up for the boycott group on Steam, as most of these people are average Steam users, not anti-Valve people like us who are most certainly in the minority.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline gpw11

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #88 on: Saturday, June 06, 2009, 06:05:56 PM »
We've given our reasons for Valve hate plenty of times.  If you don't agree with them, fine, but I don't understand why everyone always asks "Why the hate?" as though it's somehow incomprehensible.  You've heard the reasons.  If you don't think they're a big deal, that's cool, but our reasons haven't changed, and it generally seems that we only amass more of them as the company continues to do exactly the same kinds of things that have pissed us off in the past.

But no, the reaction isn't fueled by Valve hate.  It should be plainly obvious by looking at the gigantic number of people signing up for the boycott group on Steam, as most of these people are average Steam users, not anti-Valve people like us who are most certainly in the minority.

I'm not trying to bait you or anything, I just seriously don't remember why generally.  Like I said, I'm not nearly as much of a valve fan as most people seem to be and a lot of times all the love gets on my nerves.  As for disdain for Valve making this a bigger deal than it is, I was referring to here specifically more than anywhere else.  Don't get me wrong - it's shitty and it's good that there is a nerd boycott going on...I just wonder if it'd be a bit different if it was Epic or Id.

Offline MysterD

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #89 on: Saturday, June 06, 2009, 06:21:57 PM »
I'm not trying to bait you or anything, I just seriously don't remember why generally.  Like I said, I'm not nearly as much of a valve fan as most people seem to be and a lot of times all the love gets on my nerves.  As for disdain for Valve making this a bigger deal than it is, I was referring to here specifically more than anywhere else.
We can start a field day on this one. I'm think up some of them -- perma-bans to some Steam users which didn't seem warranted at all; banning games bought outside of the US region (see Orange Box incident for those who imported the game from Thailand); region blocks on some games for users in different countries; offline mode not working for many gamers through Steam; Steam basically starting the trend for SP games to require online authentication; Steam can cause issues w/ BLOB and GCF files for games which could result in you needing to reinstall Steam and all your Steam games; Steam was a resource hog (back when it first dropped); Steam needs to be turned off through MSConfig so it don't run in the background; L4D lacking content for its price; L4D2 being pumped out too quickly; HL games always seem to leave more cliffhangers hanging than necessary; MP games just don't work if Steam's down; etc etc.

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Don't get me wrong - it's shitty and it's good that there is a nerd boycott going on...I just wonder if it'd be a bit different if it was Epic or Id.
Despite digging UT3: Black, I still got a major axe to grind w/ Epic for not fixing GoW1 PC's stuttering issue and (given the way GOW PC ends) with also not bringing me GoW2 PC, Cliffy B basically calling ALL PC gamers pirates (when UT3 and GOW PC sold like shit), thanks...

I'd rather Epic use Steam or G4WL as DRM than to NOT bring their games to the PC. I hope we get Shadow Complex on the PC, at some said date.

About Id, they often get their games to have their copy protection removed in a patch, at later said date. They often let their games eventually meet the "open-source" -- so that we can have wonderful modders make Doomsday so we can run old games w/ enhancements on new modern PC -- which is great. These are the things I love about Id that they always seem to do. I just hope this all still will remain true, with EA publishing Rage. And I hope EA doesn't force a nasty protection on Rage -- or else I am gonna have an axe to grind with Id.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #90 on: Saturday, June 06, 2009, 06:31:46 PM »
Well, sure it could be different if this was another company (though I wouldn't say Epic or id... I do like id, but I don't have some insane love or loyalty to them, and Epic has pissed me off a whole bunch of times despite the fact that I often enjoy their games).

I suppose I should restate my earlier comments and rephrase slightly.  Really, I should have said this isn't entirely about Valve hate.  That has to be part of it because you can't separate a company from its product entirely, nor can you separate a company from its past.  I mean, that's why fuckups from other companies don't always piss me off so much even if I think they're unfortunate.  Case in point Bethesda.  Sure, they fucked up a bunch of times, and their games are often a bit buggy, but I've spent a lot of time around their boards and have been playing their products for years, and they've always treated me well.  They used to offer lots of free stuff for download, and while they've moved into DLC, I wasn't that pissed because barring Horse Armor, most of the DLC on offer is pretty decent, and if they realize they screw up on that, they usually do much better with subsequent DLC options.  If you treat me well, I'm far less likely to be pissed when you make a mistake, especially if you acknowledge that mistake at some point.  So yes, I'd definitely be pissed off at any company that pulled this stunt, but I would probably be a bit more forgiving if this was their first mistake and if my past experiences with them had been overwhelmingly positive.  If I was neutral toward them or hadn't had much experience, I'd be pretty damned soured on them going forward, and in the case of Valve who I openly dislike for a variety of reasons, it's simply more grist for the mill.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline MysterD

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #91 on: Saturday, June 06, 2009, 06:42:39 PM »
Well, sure it could be different if this was another company (though I wouldn't say Epic or id... I do like id, but I don't have some insane love or loyalty to them, and Epic has pissed me off a whole bunch of times despite the fact that I often enjoy their games).
Epic has done a lot in the past few years to piss me off -- mostly, fueled by Cliffy B and his bad-attitude towards PC gamers. Sure, I can understand he's pissed at pirates -- but does he have bring the rest of the legit buyers into it? And it's defiintely clear that after GoW PC dropped, they really didn't care about patching the stuttering issue on GOW PC b/c the game sold like shit since if was pirated to holy hell -- they forgot to patch the game for the 1,000's of legit users that bought the damn PC game. They only patched GoW PC game recently b/c of the Microsoft time certificate issue -- which is the only issue that new patch fixed. They still ain't fixed the stuttering issue...STILL.

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I suppose I should restate my earlier comments and rephrase slightly.  Really, I should have said this isn't entirely about Valve hate.  That has to be part of it because you can't separate a company from its product entirely, nor can you separate a company from its past.  I mean, that's why fuckups from other companies don't always piss me off so much even if I think they're unfortunate.  Case in point Bethesda.  Sure, they fucked up a bunch of times, and their games are often a bit buggy, but I've spent a lot of time around their boards and have been playing their products for years, and they've always treated me well.  If you treat me well, I'm far less likely to be pissed when you make a mistake, especially if you acknowledge that mistake at some point.  So yes, I'd definitely be pissed off at any company that pulled this stunt, but I would probably be a bit more forgiving if this was their first mistake and if my past experiences with them had been overwhelmingly positive.  If I was neutral toward them or hadn't had much experience, I'd be pretty damned soured on them going forward, and in the case of Valve who I openly dislike for a variety of reasons, it's simply more grist for the mill.
About BethSoft, yeah -- they've always done a good job I thought with fixing their problems. They are far from the technical experts, that's for sure. Given how big their projects are, I guess that's why it occurs. And usually, they do the patching in quite a timely fashion, too.

At least, BethSoft owns up to their mistakes -- and tries to correct them. Valve isn't really owning up to their mistakes here w/ L4D1. They're trying to sweep LD41 under the rug. They are saying to "Trust us this time around with your $50 purchase of L4D2." Sorry, but I'll wait til it's expansion-pack price or less, after they promised to have more post-release content for L4D1 -- whether we had to pay for it all cheaply, get it all for free, or a mixture of a little of both. Who the hell's gonna play L4D1 AFTER L4D2 drops this soon even if there's tons of DLC release? And who's to say the L4D2 net-code will be any better around this time? It's not like L4D1 got their net-code fixed recently or anything.

At least Stardock and GPG owned-up to their problems w/ Demigod -- and gave gamers something in return back to them (that coupon) that well...they really never had to in the first place. All they had to do was fix the issue in a timely fashion. They went beyond the call of duty there.

EDIT:
About Steam and Valve, I'm gonna add more fuel to the fire. They STILL sell broken 3rd party games on their website -- go see Bully PC boards on Steam. Loads of people STILL have problems w/ that game, even after Rockstar's newest patch that has been released. And some games on Steam, they were even sold w/ additional Securom Internet Protection w/ limited installs -- as if dealing w/ Steam's DRM wasn't enough of a hoop to jump through already...

Offline idolminds

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #92 on: Saturday, June 06, 2009, 07:07:43 PM »
A lot of my "Valve hate" is venting frustrations, but most of those stem from problems that Valve causes.

Like, I know I'm on dialup. Using Steam, I don't expect to be buying huge new releases and playing them within the hour. I'm not stupid. However, I do expect for the games I DO buy (retail copies), that the patching and updating work. But they don't. Steam times out when downloading updates and then wont continue. Its just downloading files, and even on a slow connection thats a "solved problem" with resuming. But Steam fucks up on me constantly to the point where if an update releases for a game, it means I can no longer play it. And I have no choice in the matter! Steam already saw an update, so it won't let me play the game at all without it. I can't switch to "offline mode" since the games aren't...you guess its...updated.

So for me, Steam is simply a broken piece of software. I know it *can* work. I've never had an issue updating any games via Impulse. It downloads, I can pause the update at will and restart them. I can even play the game without it being updated. If Steam could do that, I don't think I'd be so upset at Valve all the time. They make some good games. Hell, outside of that singleplayer Counter-Strike, I own every game they've ever made.

Offline MysterD

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Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #94 on: Saturday, June 06, 2009, 07:22:27 PM »
What a surprise.  Going to ban me from my games, Valve?  Just because I joined a group that goes against your almighty doctrines?  You can all go to hell.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline MysterD

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #95 on: Saturday, June 06, 2009, 08:54:40 PM »
You know what would be funny?
If Tripwire decided to pump out Killing Floor FREE DLC like crazy....LOL.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #96 on: Saturday, June 06, 2009, 08:57:13 PM »
I want to say, "I'd buy it", but... Steam.  And we've been having so much fun with the Haunted mod for UT3, I think I may just stick with that.  More maps coming by August, so they say, and I know at least a couple community maps are in the works...

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline MysterD

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #97 on: Saturday, June 06, 2009, 08:59:28 PM »
I want to say, "I'd buy it", but... Steam.
I'm waiting for a price cut or a kick-ass sale on Killing Floor.


Offline Pugnate

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #98 on: Sunday, June 07, 2009, 12:06:58 AM »
And now, Valve and their moderators are starting to take action against L4D2 Boycott Club...

I saw that post. They aren't banning people for joining that group, but for people spamming. In the most popular thread on the L4D2 page, there is a thread that talks about the group first up. Again, the situation is better than the EA forums for example.

And I've done all sorts of crazy shit on those forums during the past hour. I have spammed, likened Gabe to Jabba the Hut bla bla bla. They've removed about 20 inappropriate posts of mine, but haven't banned me yet. Anyone who is spamming is getting their posts removed, but single posts about the Hitler vid., and the Boycott club remain.


I'm not trying to bait you or anything, I just seriously don't remember why generally.  Like I said, I'm not nearly as much of a valve fan as most people seem to be and a lot of times all the love gets on my nerves.  As for disdain for Valve making this a bigger deal than it is, I was referring to here specifically more than anywhere else.  Don't get me wrong - it's shitty and it's good that there is a nerd boycott going on...I just wonder if it'd be a bit different if it was Epic or Id.


Aside from this situation, it definitely is more over the top here than anywhere else. I am not sure why that is either. I guess all the love for Valve brings a bigger backlash here than anywhere on the internet, even when it isn't a big deal. But yea, smaller negatives are definitely flamed up far more here, while logic and level headed judgment isn't applied when Valve is involved. Basically people here have wanted Valve to fuck up majorly for a long time, and I guess they are happy now that it has happened. :P

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We can start a field day on this one. I'm think up some of them -- perma-bans to some Steam users which didn't seem warranted at all; banning games bought outside of the US region (see Orange Box incident for those who imported the game from Thailand);

The average $50 game costs $15-$20 in Thailand. It is an original complete version specifically for that market.

Valve did not ban the accounts, they removed the entire games associated with those accounts and reset their passwords.

If I were a company, I would have done the same fucking thing.

The levels of piracy in China and Thailand are enormous. Plus the average income level isn't the same either. Not only Valve, but all official games come out there with $15-$20 pricing. It is just to get what they can. You can buy $50 official copies of Vista in this part of the world as well... though they are nerfed a bit.

On the flip side, the packaging is TERRIBLE, cheap and incomplete. I know, I bought an official copy of the Orange Box for $22 from India. These boxes are CLEARLY labeled that the products within aren't meant for sale outside of their countries.

If some people are buying these copies off of eBay, then it is up to eBay to regulate them.
« Last Edit: Sunday, June 07, 2009, 12:28:09 AM by Pugnate »

Offline MysterD

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #99 on: Sunday, June 07, 2009, 05:02:56 AM »
I saw that post. They aren't banning people for joining that group, but for people spamming. In the most popular thread on the L4D2 page, there is a thread that talks about the group first up. Again, the situation is better than the EA forums for example.
If you don't mind me asking then, what's up w/ the EA forums lately?

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And I've done all sorts of crazy shit on those forums during the past hour. I have spammed, likened Gabe to Jabba the Hut bla bla bla.
LOL.
Actually, I think Gabe was motion-captured as a Boomer! ;)

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They've removed about 20 inappropriate posts of mine, but haven't banned me yet. Anyone who is spamming is getting their posts removed, but single posts about the Hitler vid., and the Boycott club remain.
No warnings yet?

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The average $50 game costs $15-$20 in Thailand. It is an original complete version specifically for that market.
Wait....is it the same exact game itself?

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Valve did not ban the accounts, they removed the entire games associated with those accounts and reset their passwords.

If I were a company, I would have done the same fucking thing.

The levels of piracy in China and Thailand are enormous. Plus the average income level isn't the same either. Not only Valve, but all official games come out there with $15-$20 pricing. It is just to get what they can. You can buy $50 official copies of Vista in this part of the world as well... though they are nerfed a bit.
Yes, I know piracy's horrible out there...unfortunately; and piracy's a bitch in most parts of the world, as well, unfortunately.

If you do know, how "nerfed" are *these* versions are Vista in comparison to the USA Edition?

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On the flip side, the packaging is TERRIBLE, cheap and incomplete. I know, I bought an official copy of the Orange Box for $22 from India. These boxes are CLEARLY labeled that the products within aren't meant for sale outside of their countries.
Would you elaborate on the packaging even more so from India? I mean, does it come in like a box w/ the DVD in a paper sleeve or something (like Atari used to do a lot)? Or even worse? Since Valve doesn't give manuals w/ their games anymore even in the USA -- I'm betting over there, they don't get one, either.

L4D's PC version in the USA here is the DVD game packaged in a slim DVD case; with a piece of 2-sided cardboard giving you the instructions on how to install Steam with all the hot keys to play and it gives you your game key. There's really not much to any of Valve's boxes these days -- since they are trying to get you to think about opting for the Steam version.

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If some people are buying these copies off of eBay, then it is up to eBay to regulate them.
My worries about the Region blocking stems back to me buying a lot of UK Imports -- I buy a good deal here and there from Gogamer myself; usually on sale quite cheap. Often, these versions are the exact same as the USA -- game manual, DVD case, and the game on disc.

Sometimes, UK Version has a Collector's Ed that the USA for some reason didn't get; USA only gets a Standard Edition -- see STALKER: SOC overseas; same exact game and all, but it's in a nice tin case over there. Same goes for Sacred 2: Collector's Edition in the UK -- it comes w/ all kinds of extras (original Sacred re-mastered in High-Res, Art Book, Soundtrack, etc). The USA version doesn't have a Collector's Ed. :(

In some instances -- such as Fahrenheit (UK) / Indigo Prophecy (USA) and Witcher -- the USA versions are the same for the case and the insides, but the USA version of the game is censoring content out; namely the nudity. Of course, CDPR is going to change that soon, since the Uncut Version has been rated M by the ESRB Board -- and you'll only be able to get that digitally.

Offline scottws

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #100 on: Sunday, June 07, 2009, 05:57:11 AM »
Aside from this situation, it definitely is more over the top here than anywhere else. I am not sure why that is either. I guess all the love for Valve brings a bigger backlash here than anywhere on the internet, even when it isn't a big deal. But yea, smaller negatives are definitely flamed up far more here, while logic and level headed judgment isn't applied when Valve is involved. Basically people here have wanted Valve to fuck up majorly for a long time, and I guess they are happy now that it has happened. :P
I agree with you.  Well not about Valve being hated here more than anywhere else because I don't go anywhere else so I wouldn't know.

I don't get how Epic gets a pass and Valve burned at the stake.  Cliff Blezinski accused every PC gamer of being a dirty pirate, yet that is overlooked?  Epic basically abandoned support for GoW on the PC even though several major bugs still exist, and that is overlooked?  Yet Valve is burned in effigy and Epic is all but praised.

The attitudes don't seem to be consistent.

I probably should hate Steam, especially since I've personally had problems with the offline mode, but I don't.  Believe me, I wish I could use Impulse over Steam, but that's not possible in 99% of cases.  There is very little on Impulse worth owning, while Steam is a veritable warchest of gaming superhits.

Offline MysterD

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #101 on: Sunday, June 07, 2009, 06:10:42 AM »
I don't get how Epic gets a pass and Valve burned at the stake.  Cliff Blezinski accused every PC gamer of being a dirty pirate, yet that is overlooked?  Epic basically abandoned support for GoW on the PC even though several major bugs still exist, and that is overlooked?
I'm still waiting on these fixes to GoW1. As much as I liked GoW1 PC, they really need to fix the issues w/ the damn thing -- especially the nasty stuttering issue. That's really my biggest concern w/ the game.

And where's GoW2 PC, dammit? C'mon, Mark Rein -- convince Cliffy to let it be brought over to the PC. And let it be ported correctly this time and supported correctly, too.

I don't like Cliffy B -- given his comments on piracy and accusing EVERY PC gamers of piracy. He needs to get off his high-horse here. He has every right to scream at pirates and pissed at them, but not the legit gamers who actually went out and bought GoW1 PC. They should NOT have ditched support on GoW1 PC for all those legit gamers who actually bought the game -- like myself and I'm sure many others on here -- just b/c the game didn't sell good at all on the PC (probably b/c it been out for a long time on the 360) and b/c it was pirated up the ass on the PC.

Cliffy really must've been eating his own foot in his own mouth, when GoW2 (X360) got pirated. Though, I'm sure it still sold great on the 360, though...

Also, Mark Rein tries to do too much control damage for Cliffy. He doesn't need to, since we know Rein isn't the kind of cocky person that Cliffy is.

And we better see that Shadow Complex come to the PC, dammit.

Really, Epic needs to come up with a better plan for supporting PC games, if they are going to actually support this platform. Their games are getting pirated here on the PC -- and they gotta' find a way to really combat that, which happens to be fair to Epic and fair to legit PC game-buyers.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #102 on: Sunday, June 07, 2009, 07:24:08 AM »
Yea I had massive problems with that offline mode thing, until I started letting STEAM load on startup. Ever since I started doing that, it bothered me once or twice with the offline mode initially, but since then it has been smooth sailing.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #103 on: Sunday, June 07, 2009, 10:20:08 AM »
I really don't appreciate the insulting attitude that those of us who dislike Valve are somehow these unreasonable clods who make ridiculous accusations and blow everything out of proportion.  Again, you may have no problems with the way they do business and with the -- in my estimation -- entirely negative approach they've taken to game distribution (you must remember that I have ideological problems with Steam to begin with, regardless of who makes it, because I believe that digital distribution is a fundamentally bad thing that offers consumers little real, tangible benefit other than accommodating their laziness, need for instant gratification, and the ease of finding some older games because of how bad retail has gotten), but just because you don't have a problem with something doesn't mean it isn't an impasse for others.

A lot of you will go on and on about how much you hate DRM, and yet Steam is, technically speaking, the worst and most intrusive DRM that has ever existed.  I've had more problems with Steam than I ever had with anything else that wanted me to phone home on install, or had activation limits, or installed itself without my knowledge.  Over two systems now it has given me nothing but problems, and these are clean, efficient systems that have no problems with anything else.  Forced updates, a company that holds the keys to all your products, an app that you absolutely must use in order to play any game tied to the service regardless of the fact that a single problem with the app can render all of those games useless (which is just as fucking bad as Microsoft forcing you to use Vista for DX10 -- pointless and nonsensical unless you're the owner of the company, the only party to receive any benefit from such a setup), an offline mode that still works inconsistently after fucking years of development on the app, and an app that continually fucks itself up, fucks up installs tied to it, and can be compromised without a user actually doing anything stupid to compromise it... you don't think that's worth being pissed about?  The naïveté is astounding.  But I don't go around calling you a pack of morons for using Steam, do I?  But fine, whatever.  None of the world seems to have any qualms giving up more and more power to government, either, so... enjoy the Orwellian nightmare, I guess.  But keep me the fuck out of it and don't make me out to be some hypersensitive idiot just because I would rather not give up my rights as a consumer in exchange for absolutely nothing.  Impulse may also be digital distribution, which I obviously don't really care for, but there's no stopping the direction we're headed now.  I may as well find a service I'm comfortable with since many devs release games in download-only formats at this point, and I'm comfortable with Impulse in comparison to Steam.  It isn't perfect, and I'd rather I wasn't forced to use that option at all, but at least it works properly and I trust the people who run it.

And who ever overlooked Epic's bullshit?  Nobody gave them a free pass.  There was constant bitching about it on here a while ago, and as I recall, a bunch of people called us oversensitive whiners then, too, and wanted us to knock it off with the Bleszinski mockery.  But still, I have less reason to be pissed at Epic.  I don't like the direction they've headed, no, and they have certainly fallen from grace in my book, but they did at least give us a couple patches and a shitload of free stuff for UT3.  It doesn't excuse bad behavior, but it came across as something of an apology for the way they'd treated the game, at least.  That's admirable, and the content wasn't throwaway junk or a bunch of essentially meaningless tweaks like Valve constantly gives to TF2, which, speaking as a player of the original mod, I think they've run into the ground and ruined.  Whether that's the fault of the original designers they've hired or their new overlords I don't know, and it is certainly personal preference and nothing more, but what, I'm not allowed to have preferences now?  I'm not allowed to dislike a game for any reason just because it's popular?  That's basically what I've been told when I express my opinion that TF2 is a spammy nightmare of a game that shipped without even a quarter of the content I would have expected from it.  And, oddly enough, I was told the same thing about L4D when it came out.  Oh, trust Valve!  They love us, they give us free updates, and there will be tons more campaigns and stuff.  A year later and there has been basically nothing, and now a new game they expect us to buy thrown on top of that, the details of which we've already been discussing.

So yeah, I don't give anybody a free pass, but I have a lot of reasons for not liking Valve.  I don't expect anyone else to follow my line of thought just because, but it's still the way I feel about it.  Play all the Valve games you want, subscribe to all the services you want, throw all the money you want at their new full-priced sequels that should have been added content for your old game if you want, give up all the control of products you used to own if that's what you want to do, but don't act like I have no legitimate reasons for feeling the way I do about the matter.  I understand that ideology means very little to most of the people who post here.  Not all, but most.  Fine, that's the way it is with 90% of the younger people of the world, it's hardly unusual.  That's why we live in an era of cheap labor, cheap design, and everything being made out of plastic.  You're welcome to call it progress and tell me that I'm old and I need to get with the program, but that isn't going to change my mind on the matter.

EDIT - And D, if you quote and respond to this post line by line, I'm going to strap dynamite to my chest and give you a big hug of exploding death.  We've made our points, there's no need for further clutter.

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Offline Xessive

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #104 on: Sunday, June 07, 2009, 10:28:37 AM »
Cool. You go, Que!

Offline scottws

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #105 on: Sunday, June 07, 2009, 10:34:40 AM »
I guess it just comes from a difference in game tastes and hence game ownership.  All I've really played from Valve have been the HL2 games and Portal and I thought they were fantastic.  Well, I did also play TF2 but I hated it from the beginning and never played the original, so I have no frame of reference for anything that was once good but later ruined.  I thought it was crap to start.  And you own L4D and I don't so you are dealing with this fiasco and I'm not.  And you actually like UT and therefore bought UT3 and benefited from later patches and content and I don't and didn't.

Instead, I'm a guy that bought GoW PC (after already also owning it on 360), had mine and thousands of others' complaints fall on deaf ears, and then be utterly insulted in the process.  It was like an uppercut to the chin with brass knuckles.  Fuck Cliff Blezinski and fuck Epic.  I won't spend a dime on them again, that's for certain.

And for Steam, while I disagree with it in principle, I don't feel strongly enough against it to not use it here and there.  And I guess I've been lucky enough to not have to activate a retail game via Steam.  After all, COD4 and FO3 being the only retail games I purchased in the last year, and I'm careful to avoid games that make you jump through a bunch of hoops like GTAIV.  I've had a problem with it once and can see why it would make life hell for someone on dial-up, but overall it's been a pretty good experience for me.  Sure, I realize that Valve could lock my whole account, but I don't do anything that would make that happen and on the rare off-chance that it did for no reason, I would hope that Valve would help to quickly resolve the problem.

Again, I also like and would prefer Impulse (especially from an ideological standpoint), but it has a loooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnng way to go to be even close to a piece of dirt from Steam in terms of content.  But I don't place that blame on Valve... it's just they way it is.  It was first and hence got a large number of gamers signed up for the service, and attracted the publishers.  In a large part, I definitely respect Valve from a business perspective.  They had a vision with Steam and executed it with great success (again, from a business perspective).

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #106 on: Sunday, June 07, 2009, 10:36:21 AM »
And I think that's terrible.  I thought it was terrible then and terrible now.  Note that I haven't purchased Gears of War 2, and that's more to do with my irritation at Epic than not liking the GoW franchise.

Also note that like idol, I don't think Valve makes bad games.  I don't like all of their games, nor do I think that either HL2 or Portal were even half of what the industry made them out to be, but I don't think they're bad game-makers.  That just makes it more frustrating.  I want to like L4D, but how can I when Steam has fucked up the install twice (it doesn't currently work, and reinstall of Steam looks now to be necessary... again), the server tools are woefully inadequate and poorly developed, and then add the lack of content and the sequel announcement on top of that?  How am I supposed to be a fan?

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Offline idolminds

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #107 on: Sunday, June 07, 2009, 10:37:54 AM »
So Que covered everything while I was typing my very short reply, heh.

So instead I'll tell you this. Last night Pyro was talking about L4D. Hes going to send me the files on DVD since Steam sucks at updating them. I thought I'd try one more time doing it myself, so I used the backup Que gave me and started the install at around 4am.

I come back at noon to see if its done and...its not. Steam was downloading shit all a night, but it hadn't pulled a single file from the hard copy backup I had in the drive. The same thing happens when I go to restore TF2 or DoD:S. From what I read, when Steam restores a backup if the files have been updated on the server side it downloads the updates FIRST. Fine if you're on high speed, but the worst way to handle it if you aren't. So even if I do everything right and make backups I'm still boned. And people wonder why I'm not a fan of Steam. Fuck, give me an exe patch to download and I'm fucking happy.

Offline MysterD

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #108 on: Sunday, June 07, 2009, 10:47:16 AM »
Que just articulated most of the things that I feel about Steam that I've heard so many others go through and my feelings on DRM -- minus the fact that I never really had problems w/ Steam, luckily.

And since we're on the subject of people disrespecting PC gaming, Rockstar, I'm looking at you, too. Go fix GTA4 PC and Bully PC. Keep fixing GTA4 PC, so when it gets cheap, I can go buy it. Oh, Bully PC has to be the worst port I've EVER seen for a PC game -- especially for a high-profile Triple-A title.

With Idol, yeah -- I wish Steam did allow for you to have EXE's to install patches. I like having the choice, myself.

I don't mind backing up entire games, if they ain't like overly huge in size. Me, I like the way GOG does back-up with EXE files -- sometimes EXE's would be way too big to make one file, so for some of the more recent games, they give you multiple BIN files and a EXE file to download -- and to install, they EXE and BINS must ALL must be in the same path. Personally, I think GOG is the best download service around -- it's kinda' too bad they also don't do much more modern games, too. Impulse is pretty good, as well.

Offline scottws

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #109 on: Sunday, June 07, 2009, 10:49:00 AM »
Question:  Is it possible to set up Steam for offline mode (save password and all that), back up your games, then always run Steam in offline mode?  It stands to reason that this should work.  Then Steam wouldn't have any idea about game updates.

I mean I never run Steam.  Is there some reason it's keeping up with updates for you?

Offline idolminds

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #110 on: Sunday, June 07, 2009, 11:25:37 AM »
I think Steams offline mode will eventually expire. When putting it into offline mode it gives you a sort of "ticket" with an expiration date. And to turn on offline mode my games have to be all updated so I'm back to square one anyway.

One (more) thing I don't like about Steam is the option "Don't automatically update this game". I set that on all the games, but it turns out its more literal than I thought. I thought it meant it won't auto-update your game so you can keep playing the non-updated version. No, it quite literally means "You have to start the update manually". It won't let you run a game that isn't updated, period. With multiplayer I can see, but a singleplayer game that I've already been playing? Thats just dumb.

Offline MysterD

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #111 on: Sunday, June 07, 2009, 01:27:15 PM »
Idol just explained why I prefer Impulse.

With Impulse, if you want to run version 1.00 out the box, it's a SP game, and there's a newer version out there -- go right ahead. That's YOUR problem, not Impulse's. Also, I like that to run a game, as long as it's been activated online, I don't need to run Impulse. Impulse is just there for you to basically get your updates -- if you want them.

Through Impulse, I think I read this somewhere -- when you back-up an Activated game using the "Archive" feature, when you move that to a new PC, Impulse doesn't force you to activate it b/c it's on different hardware -- b/c it saves the activated file(s) (whatever it is or whatever they are), as well. Can anyone actually confirm this?

I also like on Impulse when a game has an update, it just puts an exclamation icon over that game in your My Games List and tells you a new version is available. If you want to update it, it's totally up to you.

Impulse might not have the game library Steam does, but I think it has a better framework and all -- especially w/ it now having Friend features and stuff like that.

Steam just forces really too much unnecessary junk on you.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #112 on: Sunday, June 07, 2009, 01:40:21 PM »
Quote
my feelings on DRM -- minus the fact that I never really had problems w/ Steam, luckily.

That about sums it up really.

meh..

I wrote a long post, but I am not going to bother posting it. I know this will end with a lot of RAWWRRRRRs and stuff, so it is pointless. I'd just like to point out that there are quite a few users at OW who use STEAM and have simply stopped posting on the gaming section on all things related Valve, because they find it a bit nauseating as well.

Offline MysterD

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #113 on: Sunday, June 07, 2009, 01:55:42 PM »
That about sums it up really.

meh..

I wrote a long post, but I am not going to bother posting it. I know this will end with a lot of RAWWRRRRRs and stuff, so it is pointless. I'd just like to point out that there are quite a few users at OW who use STEAM and have simply stopped posting on the gaming section on all things related Valve, because they find it a bit nauseating as well.

I do use Steam a lot, I do buy a lot of cheap games from it, and I have luckily had little issues with it. I've seen so many that have had issues with it, it ain't funny, Pug. I do have my believes on DRM and Steam -- I really don't like SP requiring activation and many of the things I cited above some 2 posts up -- which basically Impulse doesn't force upon you. Hell, GOG doesn't force much of anything on you -- which I love about it.

I'd gonna compare StarForce to Steam, Pug. I had little problems except some minor annoyances with SF  -- but to not acknowledge the huge heap of trouble it's given a lot of others would be quite silly of me. You know why? B/c I could eventually wind up having that kind of trouble, in some due time -- you just never know, Pug.

I basically tolerate Steam b/c a lot of games I like and want can actually be found there and/or actually require it. Often, they have good deals on Steam with cheap game deals, too -- which is one of the things I like about it; especially on their weekend specials. And it's very convenient to find old titles there, Indie title, and/or any titles I have trouble finding in Retail. For those reasons, I tolerate Steam.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #114 on: Sunday, June 07, 2009, 02:41:27 PM »
Whatever.

EDIT - You know, it also isn't very fair to say to people "Your points are invalid because I have no problems."  I mean, that's great for you and all, but come on, is that any way to treat your buddies over here having problems with games they can't even use?

Granted, we toss snarky comments about Valve a fair bit, but we hardly troll up every single thread about every single game.  I thought Portal was funny, but pretty overrated, and was a fairly underwhelming puzzle game.  That's got nothing to do with Valve, that has to do with me coming from a long puzzle gaming background and feeling like Portal was rather absurdly simple for the most part and therefore not really all that engaging.  You can't take every word that isn't pro-Valve as anti-Valve.  Again, I like L4D.  Not as much as some, as I can't sit with it for hours night after night, but with a periodic infusion of new content I think it would be a fantastic formula for good times.  That doesn't mean I shouldn't be allowed to openly mock whatever stupid fucker is responsible for the absolutely atrocious server design, or the fact that the game can't properly process a config file that has more than two options typed out.  Literally that was the first thing I found out in trying to deal with server problems and L4D some months ago: the game will fail to process configs that are too big.  And by "too big", we're talking like... 20 lines.  Something my old Quake 3 servers would laugh at.  Why am I not allowed to vocalize my outrage about that?  Why can't I be upset when my games don't work, or when something breaks, or when Valve pulls some shit?  I don't get it.  People harped on Doom 3 for months, and that was just because it was a game they didn't like, not because the company did something lousy or because software didn't work properly.
« Last Edit: Sunday, June 07, 2009, 03:25:01 PM by Quemaqua »

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Offline Xessive

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #115 on: Sunday, June 07, 2009, 05:06:03 PM »
I don't think anyone is arguing any of your points, Que. Not even MyD; he's just saying that he hasn't had that many problems with Steam.

Having an opinion about a game is perfectly fine, it's not something you can really argue. A lot of people love Serious Sam but I can't stand it, that doesn't mean it's a bad game it's just not my kind of game. If I disliked it as a result of technical issues then it's a different matter altogether.

I totally agree with you on the "not pro-Valve" versus "anti-Valve" comments. I'm not anti-Valve, I'm just against their behaviour regarding the developments of the L4D franchise. I still intend to buy the eventual Half-Life Episode 3! ;D I also hate Digital-only distribution. That mainly has to do with my refusal to get any credit cards. By contrast I am anti-EA (for various reasons). It's a shame that a lot of great titles are coming from their end and I'll have to go without them. Mind you, I do support Bioware, so there is a good chance I'll buy Mass Effect 2 regardless.

Being angry at Valve is perfectly justified at this juncture, especially over faulty products or flat-out broken software. There's no need for any explanation beyond the hard facts.

Offline MysterD

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #116 on: Sunday, June 07, 2009, 05:34:51 PM »
I don't think anyone is arguing any of your points, Que. Not even MyD; he's just saying that he hasn't had that many problems with Steam.
That's exactly what I'm saying, X -- that I ain't had many problems w/ Steam. My analogy w/ Securom, Steam, and other DRM's -- same thing, I've been lucky without having tons of issues that others had with them. I might not have had the issues, but I know of others -- like say Que and Idol; that's just two of many -- who have had more problems w/ it than you can shake a stick at. And those problems others have had, they should NOT go ignored. They need to be mentioned so action can be taken. We who don't have the problems might run into them, if companies like Valve don't fix the issues. And of course, those who have these issues already, more so than anyone else, they don't deserve to be without a paddle like that -- b/c that just freaking sucks. None of us want to wind up in that boat and deserve to row the boat w/out the paddle b/c of a company who doesn't want to support their products properly. These issues, they need to be at least attempted to be resolved by game companies -- and eventually resolved. That was my point, some few posts up. I hope it's much clearer now.

Look at Bully PC. Some people, after the last patch, finally got that technical mess going. Many, still don't -- just like myself. I shouldn't be ignored -- Rockstar, fix the issues so I can be happy like the person who just got it working! Companies just need to do a better job w/ fixing issues -- especially major common ones.

Finally, I can enjoy Far Cry 2 PC -- since it's finally been fixed w/ Patch 1.03 the other day, for the most part. I've had this game since The Black Friday Sales in 2008 -- and I stopped playing it b/c of its issues of save corruption and broken quests -- which led me to not be able to get much further and I just gave up. Thanks to this patch, I can play it and enjoy it.

Like yourself, X -- I plan to buy HL2: Ep 3. It's just I won't be going out to buy L4D2 if I feel it's way overpriced. When it drops in price -- probably expansion pack price or less -- yeah, I'm gonna get my grubby little paws on L4D2.

What X said is so true -- about games that are buggy as sin b/c of technical messes. Yeah, that's another story, entirely. If anybody should be really complaining about those kind of technical messes, it should be the fans of the Gothic series. How many times have those fans bought a game in a series w/ the dev's and publishers saying something along the lines of, "We won't have a buggy mess, next time around when the next game is released " -- and then voila, the game's way more of a mess than it was the last time around with each iteration? It's sad Gothic 3 did turn out the way it did -- and that it took Spellbound and especially The Community to really fix the damn thing. Same goes for Arcanum and Vamp: BL, as well -- the community fixed the game and really took it to new technical levels to which you should not miss the game if you can get it damn cheap. I would NOT be surprised if say suddenly if the gamers and modders -- especially since the SDK is out now -- are the ones who save L4D1 from being chucked aside and support the hell out of L4D1.

It'd actually be pretty ironic if nobody buys L4D2 -- but somehow, modders keep L4D1 alive so good in these next few months, L4D2 doesn't sell at well. It'd be interesting if modders start implementing melee-weapons, their own better AI Directors features, new maps, and other junk into L4D1...
« Last Edit: Sunday, June 07, 2009, 06:01:51 PM by MysterD »

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #117 on: Monday, June 08, 2009, 07:25:32 AM »
First of all, I think Que thinks I am speaking of him specifically, which isn't true. Yea, he does it more than others, but I honestly wasn't speaking of him alone.

And no... you guys are getting me wrong. I don't like the DRM either, and I think that unless you give in to STEAM and let it load on startup AND are armed with a good connection, you are going to get far too many hair pulling moments.

I am not speaking of that. You guys have every right to hate on that or whatever. Please look back at my post, and you will note that I never meant the DRM venting or whatever.

Really, I am talking about stuff aside from that. I mean we get it, unless you let STEAM give it to you up the rear end, you are going to get an exploded asshole. And for those with less than great connections, it is almost a non choice, in the sense that you can't even let STEAM have its way in that situation without having more hair pulling moments.

I just mean, the anti Valve stuff seems to creep into stuff that don't involve the DRM or STEAM related stuff. That's when it gets more annoying I guess.

To be honest, I haven't ever found Xessive's STEAM rants annoying. It is probably because I know the dude in real life, but I just don't see him bringing the hate on every Valve related issue.

Who knows, maybe it is our fault. Maybe the problem is that we just have so few people posting that the same angry opinions seem a 100 times more. That could be it.

Again, I don't mean the DRM or the STEAM stuff, honestly.

It also seems to me that because many of you believe Stardock to be the antiValve, many of their faults are really glossed over. Though it has to be said, that I am probably alone in this opinion as far as I know, so I am probably off the mark.

Quote
You know, it also isn't very fair to say to people "Your points are invalid because I have no problems."  I mean, that's great for you and all, but come on, is that any way to treat your buddies over here having problems with games they can't even use?

a) It won't recognize my credit card because my region doesn't fall in a download center. Thus I have to rely on guys like GPW, and in turn have to send him pictures of goats having sex.

b) We used to lose power here twice a day (though haven't in a month, which is great). While we immediately turn on the generator, our net connection tower at one point didn't have backup. While they installed a backup for it finally, STEAM was a real pain in the rear end.

c) When I am about to hit the sack, and want to just play for 15 minutes, quite often I end up losing those 15 min. to mandafuckingtory updates.

I guess one of the things is that my life is giving me lots of stress so these things probably seem magnified in my head.

Offline idolminds

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #118 on: Monday, June 08, 2009, 12:23:07 PM »
Well, I'll make an effort to not bash Valve as much (though I tend to bash Steam mostly. I generally like most of the actual games Valve makes).

But this thread inspired me to finally write an email to Gabe Newell. It mostly consists of ideas to improve Steam usage on slow connections. Stuff like download information (total update size, amount completed, amount remaining, download speed, current file download also with size/completed), and giving user more control over Steams network usage (when I pause an update I expect it to stop, not stop when its done with the current file which could be 2 hours from now). I dont expect a reply, but hopefully they take it into consideration.

Offline angrykeebler

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2 announced
« Reply #119 on: Monday, June 08, 2009, 12:31:01 PM »
hay guyz whuts going on in here lolz
Suck it, Pugnate.