Topic: Valve announces Dota 2

[idolminds]

Uh, ok then.

Finally they made a game that will have a worse community than Counter Strike!

Valve's approach to Dota 2 is unusual in that the gameplay itself is remaining almost entirely untouched. "Our first reaction is to assume that [design elements are] there for a reason," project lead Erik Johnson explains. "IceFrog is one of the smartest designers we've ever met. He's made so many good decisions over the years in building the product. He virtually never makes a decision that doesn't have some reasoning behind it and a way to pick apart the logic behind it." This approach means that Dota 2 basically is DotA-Allstars with new technology.

Well that sounds boring as shit, especially since thats almost exactly what Heroes of Newerth is.

Updated thread title. I guess its official name is "Dota 2".

[PyroMenace]

Did they actually get their ugly corporate hands on the Dota license? Since you know they could have easily made this game without it.

[Pugnate]

Oh joy.

Release HL2:Ep3 already.

[idolminds]

You know what this needs? Some drama!

[Pugnate]

haha well put.

[Pugnate]

OK so apparently DOTA is some open IP, and Valve are paying no one by using the DOTA2 name... no one.

So basically the people who originally made DOTA are getting zilch, and Valve just saw an open IP and decided to make a sequel.

Why not name it something else then? I find this pretty evil. I don't think EA or Activision have just taken a popular mod, and decided to make a sequel without at least trying to do justice to the original creators, because they didn't register the IP. Obviously the original creators aren't happy.

You know why someone doesn't go make Half-Life 3? Because Valve would fucking sue them.

Again, why not name it something else?

[gpw11]

Well, I don't know all that much about it, but here's my understanding of the situation from what I've read:

-Defence of the Ancients is a WCIII custom map game type created by some dude who wished to remain anonymous, stopped developing and passed the torch on.

-He  passed it on to some other guy and walked away

-The guy he passed it on to turned it into Dota: Allstars, the game it's known as today and eventually passed it onto another developer; Ice Frog.  He then went and worked on League of Legends. Ice Frog seems to be attributed to the current success of the game.   He's developed and maintained it for the majority of the lifespan of the game/custom map/mod/whatever. Basically, he's the curator of the game and the connection to the community.

-Valve hired him to make dota (I don't think this stands for "Defence of the Ancients". Probably to signify that the original, mod/open IP will remain out there, under someone else). 

I could be  wrong about it, but I don't really see anything unethical going on here. It's open and this is part of that, but from everything I've come across, the guy they hired (Ice Frog) is the man behind it.  Sure, someone else actually created the concept and created the original mod, but they walked away and passed it on long ago. Valve approached the man behind the game and, from what I understand, not only involved him, but we can also assume compensated him very well for this.

If the creators of DotA are popping out of the woodwork now and calling foul, I feel very little sympathy for them.  If you want to create an open ip but prevent others from capitalizing upon it, there are routes you can take to do so...they didn't, and I assume it isn't because of lack of knowledge.  I assume it's because they felt that they had put in what they could to the project and passed it on.

As far as I know, the original creators haven't come out and spoken out against this.  There was a trademark claim regarding the "Defensives of the Ancients" name a few months ago, but from what I've read, the person who actually put the claim in wasn't actually involved in the creation of the game at all but rather the administration of a fan-site which was the defacto official site of the mod (which will happen when shit is open).  I think the "curator" between the game creator and Ice Frog also supported this...as he was involved in the creation of Leagues of Legends with the guy who ran the website.

I can see their point: you shouldn't be able to just waltz in and make a sequel to something like that.  But, the reason you don't see this happening more often is because there are protections out there, and this is a very unique situation.  They haven't done much different than they've done with DoD, CS, or L4D to some extent: They went out and acquired the developer behind the game.  The difference here is that there really isn't an IP associated with the game to buy....or protect.  Note that this isn't the case with the majority of open source projects (which still retain quite a bit of protection).  The controversy I've come across surrounding this game, however, hasn't touched on this at all.

I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying it's not all that wrong and not something you can easily liken to EA or Activision just ripping off a popular mod.

[Pugnate]

Alright, that doesn't seem so bad. I still think that Valve shouldn't have called it DOTA2 though.

[gpw11]

Yeah, that seems just silly.

[PyroMenace]

For some reason I didn't realize they hired Ice frog, well this makes more sense now.

[idolminds]

This should get interesting.

Blizzard to Valve: "Bring it on, bitch."

[Pugnate]

There you go. Despite GPW's logical explanation, it just still feels wrong and quite cheap.

[MysterD]

Both Blizz and Valve are getting TOO big for their own good...
*shakes my head*

[Quemaqua]

"Valve is usually so pro mod community. It's such a community company that it just seems like a really strange move to us... I really don't understand why [they would do it], to be honest."

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that that's a total misconception and it should be plainly obvious given the company's history.  I don't know why people feel like those guys are philanthropists.  Sure, they've supported some modding and stuff and have given away a few things in some game updates, but hardly anything to write home about.  Money and expansion seems to be the obvious motive behind everything they do at this point.  I'm not trying to start a debate about whether that's right or wrong; certainly they're a business and can do that if they feel it's good for the company.  But why does everyone try to pass them off as community-driven and open to sharing and creating without restriction when they aren't?

[MysterD]

Valve, Microsoft, Activision, Blizz - they're all out for the money.

Only reason Valve is open like they are to the gaming community like they are w/ Mods, lots of updates, free DLC, SDK's, and etc - is b/c it's just really good business for them to do so. This really keeps the people interested in their company and in their past, present, and future games, expansions, and products. This is the stuff they know gamers and modders like - and they keep their customers happy by doing so.

Honestly - I wish more gaming companies would do some of the things Valve does w/ mods, SDK's, updates galore, free DLC, community support, etc. For example - I would've loved to seen Obsidian's Alpha Protocol get a SDK released; Obsidian's Fallout: New Vegas already got their GECK SDK released. I'd love to see a SDK releases for say Vampire: Bloodlines - which is a Source game. All of Valve's own big dogs - HL1, HL2, L4D games, etc - they got SDK's out for gamers to do their thing w/ b/c it makes gamers and modders happy.

Then there's things like Valve's upcoming DOTA2 - that make me scratch my head and make me wonder why the hell they just didn't name it something else. I understand why - b/c DOTA's a name itself already, w/ a huge community and following from its mod community. I just - I don't know, I just wish they named it something else, honestly. There's just too much murky waters and other stuff that looks to be coming w/ Valve now taking the DOTA tag - given what we've heard, seen, and read of late.

[idolminds]

Ok, this is going to be fairly off topic even though it involves DOTA and the genre.

Nearly every thread about DOTA end up talking about whats good and bad, and there are two things that seem to divide players: "Last Hit" and "Deny". For those that don't know, and I may even be a little wrong here, this is the simple explanation: The little spawning monsters that march down the lanes are called creeps. Killing enemy creeps is your primary method of earning XP and gold, but due to a limitation in the Warcraft 3 engine you only get credit for the kill if you land the killing blow. The "Last Hit". Your opponent can come along and get a "Last Hit" on his own creeps before you can. He doesnt earn any XP or gold, but hey keeps you from getting it. The "Deny".

The hardcore DOTA players believe this is an integral part of the gameplay, while other people and particularly new people find it confusing and not fun at all. League of Legends has kept Last Hit but removed Deny. Demigod did away with both. People are arguing over it now that Valve is making Dota 2.

Personally I don't like either "feature". It feels backwards. Doing 95% of the damage to an enemy creep only to have it die to a friendly creep means you get no XP or gold from it? Or your enemy can essentially "team kill" to waste your time? Doesn't sound fun. But assume it stays, I think it could be made more interesting if they added another player on top, and fitting with the RPG aspects of the game.

Alignment.

What if killing your own creeps had a negative effect on the player. You might be denying your enemy resources, but there was a cost involved. Every time you "Deny" you become more evil, this could have consequences such as limiting which items you can use, or maybe your own creeps would try to avoid you (since you seem keen on killing them). Having a tradeoff of not just screwing your opponent but making it a real decision you have to make. How far down the evil path can you afford to go? Is it worth stopping my opponent right now, which could stop me from using X?

I think that would make it very interesting, and a step up from what it currently is.

[gpw11]

"Last hit" sounds archaic and "Deny" sounds awkward as fuck as a gameplay mechanic.  The only people who could possibly enjoy those and encourage their inclusion into a new game would have to be purists who worry that improving the game would make it more accessible and possibly fuck with their stats (which they most likely masturbate to).  Fuck them.

That said, the old swaying crosshair from the original DoD was the best thing to ever happen to online gaming where recoil mattered, and fuck anyone who disagrees.

[shock]

I just got into the beta.  I'm a long time DOTA player.  I've only played 1 game so far, but I'll post with impressions once I get a chance.  The short of it is that this game is awesome for DOTA vets, more accessible for newbs (but probably still not that accessible), and stunningly similar to the old DOTA.  And that's a good thing (IMO).

[idolminds]

This matches my DOTA experiences pretty well.

[MysterD]

Blizzard sues Valve over DOTA.

[Pugnate]

This actually makes me happy. Yes both companies are large oversized dickheads, but Valve had no business registering that name, I feel. No one should own that.

[idolminds]

I dont think Blizzard is suing Valve, but they are challenging their attempt at the trademark for DotA. Which I think Blizzard has a strong case for that Valve has no ties to that name whatsoever. Lots of people are pointing out that Valve hired 2 guys that were pretty big in the development of the Dota mod, but I still dont think that gives them the right to the name. MANY people made DotA maps and yes, used that name.

This is from the GetDota.com site:

Q:How popular is this game? What is its background?

A: The basic core concept of the game stretches back almost 10 years to the early days of Starcraft with a mod called Aeon of Strife and then afterwards with Valley of Dissent followed by RoC-DotA on Warcraft 3 by Euls. They had a relatively small but loyal playerbase. After the release of Warcraft 3: The Frozen Throne, many more mods of this concept took form. One of these was mods was DotA-Allstars, originally a collection of the most popular heroes from the other mods, initially developed by Meian followed by Guinsoo and then Neichus. Another DotA mod called DotA-Chaos was building up popularity in China at this time.

So not only has it changed hands several times just under the name "DotA Allstars", Allstars itself was created as a "best of" of characters from other DotA maps. So why exactly do the one or two guys that Valve hired think they own it all?

I think the damning thing is that before Valve hired them they made no effort to protect the trademark. Anyone could and did make DotA variations. As far as I am aware no one tried to assert they owned the name. Except of course, Valve now. Gotta protect trademarks or you lose them. I think "Dota" is now basically a generic term.

[MysterD]

This actually makes me happy. Yes both companies are large oversized dickheads, but Valve had no business registering that name, I feel. No one should own that.

I wonder if given this, Valve will NAME the game something else now.
You'd figure if they did use a different name [which, I really think they should] for a game, Valve w/ their new game would market the hell out of IceFrog being involved w/ the game.
That alone should be enough to get gamers excited for some kind of spiritual sequel to DOTA.

It just seems odd to me, Valve is developing a DOTA2 in name; even if they have the game's main "caretaker", IceFrog.
DOTA was a WC3 Mod already - which used WC3 & BNet, which Blizz owns. I guess this is why Blizz is stepping in here.
But, Blizz better not claim to OWN that DOTA property...it's the community's.

[Xessive]

How can Blizzard sue Valve over the name of a mod that was not developed (or even published) by Blizzard?!

[MysterD]

How can Blizzard sue Valve over the name of a mod that was not developed (or even published) by Blizzard?!

As long as Blizz doesn't claim to own DOTA, I have no problem w/ them objecting to Valve owning it.

It's not like IceFrog owns the property. He never originally owned it, it was passed off to him - but, he is the one who took care of the DOTA mod for WC3.
Plus, there's been a bunch of spin-offs by other parts of the DOTA Community, as well.
As far as I'm concerned, this property really belongs to the DOTA Community for WC3.

We really might want to look at the EULA's for both BNet and WC3 about Mods.
Namely, we'd want to see to see if it says anything about "mods using WC3 and/or BNet" - to see if it says that mods solely become part of the Blizzard community [that'd be cool]; Blizzard themselves [that would be wrong, as far as I'm concerned]; or whatever.

The thing is - Blizz for their future games better keep including SDK's and all of that stuff for Warcraft RTS games. Or else, they'll piss off their WC3 DOTA Mod Community.

[MysterD]

PC Gamer -> PCG decoding Blizzard and Valve dispute over DOTA 2.

[MysterD]

Blizz & Valve settle DOTA trademark issue.

Valve keeps DOTA trademark - and can use it commercially.
Blizz changes name of Blizzard DOTA to Blizzard All-Stars.

[idolminds]

Too bad we'll never know the details of this one. Did Blizzard "give up" because they couldn't win? Did Valve just pay a bunch of money?

[Quemaqua]

When they were having one of their money-pile sex orgies, they realized they should just stay friends.

[Pugnate]

That's a shocking turnaround from Blizzard.

[idolminds]

Dota 2 to be free-to-play.