Topic: The current democratic process in America

[Ghandi]

Our democratic process has been so saturated with fear and indecision that most people have no idea what they are voting for anymore. The majority of elected officials run perpetual campaigns, and every vote that they make is calculated not on the public good, but upon how they will be affected in the next election. Add to this the spin and outright lies that the media and pundits use, along with millions of dollars worth of bullshit campaign ads, and you have an excellent recipe for voter-based inaction.

Now all that needs to happen is that you add a strong, media-driven fear of a certain populace (Muslims, immigrants) and explain that the opposition is doing nothing to quell these fears. Success! You now have a president that can give tax breaks to the wealthy! Oh, wait, you don't have a lot of money? Don't worry, we have some people that you should be worried about! Vote for us!

[Pugnate]

What happened to Obama is pretty fucked up. Two years... that's all you give him, before handing it back to the Republicans?

And then they went on to say some stupid shit after they won.

Plus it seems Palin is one of the most popular ones out there, which is as messed up as it can be.

[scottws]

Palin is really polarizing.  I don't think there is a general positive feeling towards her.  I hate her.

As far as this past election I think the problem is really that, overall, Democratic voters are more apathetic about voting and the political process in general and they let this one get away from them.  I think there was a sense of defeat before people even went to the polls and probably figured there could be nothing that would change the outcome.

I'm probably more conservative than liberal, but I think it is a travesty that there was a massive Republican takeover and now the rhetoric is that they are going to unroll all the stuff that Obama did, saying America has rejected his agenda by voting in the Republicans.  Don't these people complaining about the economy remember that it all starting during the late Bush era and it was his administration being in bed with the fat cats that caused it?  We just handed the keys back.

Obama was probably overspending, but some of it was necessary.  Didn't anyone study history and Roosevelt's New Deal?

[K-man]

What happened to Obama is pretty fucked up. Two years... that's all you give him, before handing it back to the Republicans?

Same thing happened with Clinton. 

[Pugnate]

Yea I know, except the Republicans were willing to work it out with Clinton. It improved his presidency in the end.

Here the rhetoric, as Scottws says, is that we are going to unroll all that Obama has done. Well, that's two years down the drain. And basically, I think they realize that when they worked with Clinton, it actually improved things to the point where he got reelected. It seems that here their main goal is that Obama not get elected in two years time, and nothing else.

So that's two years lost because Obama's work is going to be rolled back, and another two years of stalling. Basically, things will stagnate.

I actually care because I like Obama and he seems to be sincere. His policies towards the Muslim world have been strict, but fair. I mean his strictness has been towards the corrupt governments in the Muslim world, but he has been generous to Muslim people. Poor Muslim countries have the same level of money still coming in, but instead of going towards arms races, that money is going towards schools, infrastructure, etc.

Bush was a real fool in that regard.

So yes, this is pretty frustrating. I feel pretty sorry for Obama, and I feel sorry for those that voted Obama in, in the first place.

Yes, Clinton went through a similar thing, but the democratic party has lost far more votes than it did then.

The problem with the Republicans seems to be that they are very good at fear mongering. They will take a couple of issues, and then spread disinformation and convince people that the issues are graver than they are.

I am not a US citizen obviously, and I am more conservative I guess.... also the Republican party has historically aided the Muslim world far more in terms of money. But they have done it without sense.

The US of A basically wrote Musharraf an open check, and the majority of that money just went on the defense budget.

Obama didn't reduce any of those aid funds, but took a lot more steps towards accountability. He also presented terms for where the money would spent.

The other thing was health care. It isn't socialism if your health care has more government control. You have the government control your postal services, and your law enforcement. God forbid that any of you should get ill, but the health care coverage system has required a retooling for ages.

[idolminds]

As ghandi said, politicians are only concerned about elections and reelections, not in doing what is right for the people. I wish we had term limits for every government official with no reelections. If everyone knew they only had 4 years to do anything then they wouldn't be screwing around so much.

But good luck getting THAT into law.

[Cobra951]

. . . I'm probably more conservative than liberal, but I think it is a travesty that there was a massive Republican takeover and now the rhetoric is that they are going to unroll all the stuff that Obama did, saying America has rejected his agenda by voting in the Republicans.  Don't these people complaining about the economy remember that it all starting during the late Bush era and it was his administration being in bed with the fat cats that caused it?  We just handed the keys back.

Obama was probably overspending, but some of it was necessary.  Didn't anyone study history and Roosevelt's New Deal?

I voted a straight democrat ticket in '08, mostly as a thumbs down to the travesties of the Bush Jr era.  It only took 2 years to convince me that democrats in their current incarnation are actually worse.  The healthcare bill that was passed is a horror show that will hurt far more than it will help.  And absolutely nothing was done (or even promoted) from a populist standpoint to staunch the bleeding of American jobs out to foreing lands.  As a result, my vote this year was no vote.  I planned to go to the polls last Tuesday and vote strictly for local issues--school levies and such.  Then I found out there were no local issues at all, only candidates.  So I walked to the polling place on Tuesday, and I walked back home.  I suppose I could have put a blank ballot through the scanner; not sure if that would have been acknowledged or rejected outright.

Both democrats and republicans get a vote of no confidence from me.  We need another alternative, desperately.

[K-man]

Both democrats and republicans get a vote of no confidence from me.  We need another alternative, desperately.

I agree.  And I emphatically believe that the collection of loonies in the Tea Party are not the answer

[idolminds]

Cobra, the machine would have spit it back out and indicated there were votes not filled in (I cant remember if it says which ones specifically or just a generic error). You could have the worker there force the machine to take it with the blank answers, but it would just be a waste of time for everyone involved if you didn't vote for anything anyway.

[sirean_syan]

One of the more interesting things I saw this election was something like 2% of people in New Mexico voted for something along the lines of "None of the above candidates" in one of the races. That's a pretty strong message in my mind. If 2% were willing to use that for their vote, then imagine how many more actually didn't expect much but voted out of tradition or half-hearted faith.

I think it could actually mean something if there was a movement in the next cycle or two to get people to vote for no one. Getting a number above 5% or something could have some significant symbolic results. Now if that gets translated into real results, that's another question. I'm already of the mind that voting really doesn't amount to much outside of local issues already, so a vote for no one is an acknowledgment of a broken system.

There really does need to be some sort of political purge though. Term limits across the board is the calm choice. The not-so-calm choice isn't half as nice.

[Pugnate]

I think some changes need to be made to the constitution so that naturalized citizens can also be allowed to run for president.

Because we all know the solution to all these problems is that Arnold be in the White House.

[scottws]

He would... *ahem*.... terminate the corruption.

[beo]

i honestly think if fox news were somehow banished, that 90% of foreign anti-us sentiment would disappear. news should be reported as factual information not opinion - it should not influence, it should inform. the fact that fox is directly meddling in the political process is just shameful. the biggest terrorist threat to the us - fox news.

also, on the tea-party...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2010/nov/07/tea-party-old-whine-new-bottles

[Cobra951]

As opposed to who, beo, MSNBC?

[Pugnate]

Yea I've noticed MSBC news has turned into this liberal version of Fox News. Thing is that this turn came recently, and probably because of Fox News. Still doesn't make some of it any less stupid, of course.

[Cobra951]

Recently?  They've been far left for quite a while.  Everyone brings their editorial slant to what they tell you.  It isn't just Fox, or MSNBC.  I find CNN to be the most centrist, though they too tend to lean left, as most journalists do.  What Fox offers is perspective.  Take the same story from all points of view, and you see it in greater depth.

[scottws]

I just watch the BBC.  You realize how sensationalist American journalism has gotten when you watch the BBC.  On there you'll find *gasp* real news!

[Quemaqua]

Much good in this thread.  I agree with Cobra's overall assessment, and I'm with him on the news.  I think Fox News basically exists because of people who got sick of having liberalism forced down their throats.  I'm not staunchly conservative, though more toward that side, and I can't deal with any news, either from Fox or elsewhere, not as *news*.  Scott's assessment is pretty accurate from what I can tell... the BBC does a much better job of actual news reporting.

I also don't think the tea party folks should be judged too harshly.  It's a very loose sort of thing with a lot of different people, and can vary widely when you compare and contrast different groups and areas.  And if you get hung up reading news stories, don't be surprised to see it in a wholly negative light, because they're generally directly opposed to what the majority of the media outlets are pushing.

[Pugnate]

I just watch the BBC.  You realize how sensationalist American journalism has gotten when you watch the BBC.  On there you'll find *gasp* real news!

hahaha yea this is why anyone outside of America finds American news media so fascinating.

And Cobra, they may have always been leftist, but that Keith Obrien (or whatever his name is) guy has started to sound almost as big a loon as Glenn Beck recently.

[gpw11]

I find MSNBC actually more ridiculous than Fox News. At least with Fox News is all like "Hahaha, WTF?!".  With Olbermann or Maddow it's more just like "Seriously?  Is this seriously happening right now?"   It's like compairing a three ring circus with some shithead improv troupe...you don't take either seriously, but at least when you're watching the circus you get to see some crazy shit.

Speaking of which, I refuse to take the Tea Party seriously. I mean, I'm all for constitutional adherence and fiscal conservatism, but those are some crazy backwoods motherfuckers with no grasp of economic reality. Also, they love Sarah Palin.  Sarah "'Death Panel" Palin.


Oh, and Glen Beck....who's a mormon. DO YOU KNOW WHAT MORMONS BELIEVE IN?!

[shock]

I didn't vote in this election and I'm not sure when I'll vote again.  It's all the same bullshit.  No one does anything of substance and everyone plays the blame game.  I'm sick of the rhetoric.  The whole system is broken, and I don't expect anything to change unless that does.

That said, things aren't so bad right now.  As long as the ship keeps going even keel, I don't particularly care what jackass dicks around and "represents" me.

[angrykeebler]

I didn't vote in this election and I'm not sure when I'll vote again.  It's all the same bullshit.  No one does anything of substance and everyone plays the blame game.  I'm sick of the rhetoric.  The whole system is broken, and I don't expect anything to change unless that does.

That said, things aren't so bad right now.  As long as the ship keeps going even keel, I don't particularly care what jackass dicks around and "represents" me.

This.

It seems to me no matter who is President or runs the Congress and/or Senate, nothing really gets any better or worse in my life.

[gpw11]

I didn't vote in this election and I'm not sure when I'll vote again.  It's all the same bullshit.  No one does anything of substance and everyone plays the blame game.  I'm sick of the rhetoric.  The whole system is broken, and I don't expect anything to change unless that does.

That said, things aren't so bad right now.  As long as the ship keeps going even keel, I don't particularly care what jackass dicks around and "represents" me.

Yeah, there's really not all the much difference in policy to really allow for a drastic change in quality of life between two different candidates....not that you could really come up with a quantifiable comparison anyways.  For example, the recent economic crisis is often seen as a reflection of two terms of republican rule, but that's a short sighted and pretty uneducated (not to mention partisan) way of looking at things. The crises was due to many factors, only one of which being decreased regulation of lending practices...sometihng which mainly started under Carter and proceeded unhindered and without opposition (for the most part) over the last 20 years. Here's a secret:  Economics are rarely predictive and policy on the behalf of both parties will basically follow whatever school of thought is popular during the time...something that only really becomes apparent in hindsight.  Simply put:   Voting Kerry or Gore wouldn't have stopped this unless they had the biggest turn around and hidden policy agenda in American history up their sleeves.  Chances are nothing would have changed. 

Guess that's why many people believe in being more active in local politics and less in federal....the effects of policy are more easily apparent.

[scottws]

I just hate the spin of politics.  For instance Republicans are saying that the fact that voters put them back in control is basically a memorandum stating that Americans want to turn back the things that Obama and the Democratic congress did, even though exit polls showed that people were pretty evenly split on things like the Obama health plan.

I also hate how Republicans are preaching fiscal responsibility but at the same time want to keep the Bush tax cut for upper earners but they spin it to sound like Obama wants to raise taxes for everyone even though he really wants to keep the middle class tax cut and compromise on a middle ground for the upper class one.

[Cobra951]

What no politician wants to admit is that it's impossible to balance the budget right now on the backs of common Americans.  That would kill everyone.  What might work is something I heard on Fareed Zakaria's GPS show on CNN: a one-time, undodgeable 35% surtax on the wealthiest 5% of taxpayers would pay down half the national debt.  That's the claim anyway.  You know that will never happen, because among those people lives the power that runs the country.  Make no mistake about it.  Never in a million years.

Right now we need to keep operating in the red, so we can build up a prosperous tax base again.  After that happens, we can think of phasing in new taxes.  But it won't happen if the true powers that be keep trickling down their wealth on India and China rather than America.  And this issue no one has tackled, or to my knowledge even brought up.  We can't continue to consume without producing and expect black on the balance sheet.  Life doesn't work that way, only bubbles do.