Author Topic: Reza Aslan vs Bill Maher.  (Read 4153 times)

Offline Pugnate

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Offline scottws

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Re: Reza Aslan vs Bill Maher.
« Reply #1 on: Thursday, October 02, 2014, 04:52:37 AM »
I'm at work.  Summary?

I've never heard of Reza Aslan but I see he has several writings regarding religion, especially Islam.  I know Maher is an outspoken atheist, so I'm sure the video is pretty interesting.

Offline idolminds

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Re: Reza Aslan vs Bill Maher.
« Reply #2 on: Thursday, October 02, 2014, 01:47:48 PM »
Oh man, right at the end when the host said they were just asking questions I burst out laughing.

Offline Xessive

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Re: Reza Aslan vs Bill Maher.
« Reply #3 on: Saturday, October 04, 2014, 01:37:08 AM »
Reza Aslan couldn't expressed my views any more clearly than that.

Serious respect to him for trying to even have a dialogue about the definitions that we use so loosely and the specific examples that are used to justify generalizations.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Reza Aslan vs Bill Maher.
« Reply #4 on: Saturday, October 04, 2014, 07:05:16 AM »
"Not militant.  Not Islam.  Militant Islam."

Yeah.  Let's find a way to define the problem, because how can we ever solve it if political wishy-washiness won't let us look it in the face?  Militant Islam, Islamists, Islamo-fascists--whatever works.  But the first thing we must do is acknowledge that the most violent world problem right now is associated with Islam.  We need informed people like Ezra Aslan to help narrow the focus.  I'm glad to see he didn't just reject the association outright, but simply helped narrow it in that interview's narrative.  Knowing the enemy is essential to survival.

Offline PyroMenace

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Re: Reza Aslan vs Bill Maher.
« Reply #5 on: Saturday, October 04, 2014, 11:06:51 AM »

Offline Xessive

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Offline Cobra951

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Re: Reza Aslan vs Bill Maher.
« Reply #7 on: Saturday, October 04, 2014, 04:01:12 PM »
Yeah, see, that's what makes us weak against this particular enemy.  He's difficult to define without incurring this sort of wrath.  I mean, we know--we know--that the Von Trapp family singers will never blow up an airplane.  Knowing who isn't the enemy should keep us from wasting precious time and resources pursuing the wrong targets.  Yet try to present this logic in a way that won't run afoul of political correctness.

Offline Xessive

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Re: Reza Aslan vs Bill Maher.
« Reply #8 on: Sunday, October 05, 2014, 12:07:58 AM »
Political correctness aside, it is logical to determine your targets before you take aim; if you "spray and pray" you're far more likely to cause massive amounts of collateral damage. To put it mildly, it's lazy to not give a shit about who is in the way and just kill everything in the general vicinity.

It is so easy to generalize because we don't want to put in the effort to study and learn about what we "hate;" instead let's just hate that entire demographic/hemisphere/country/religion/ethnicity/etc. We prefer to label things to make it easy to identify as the object of our hatred. Quite often we mislabel things because it's the faster or easier option "believes in God, believes in angels, doesn't agree with me.. Ungh, chuck it under 'religious zealot' category."

In this context, we look at two or three "muslim countries" (to quote a label) and assume that they represent the entire population of ~1.6B muslims around the world. What we neglect is that the problem is the people involved. It doesn't matter what religion they have; if they were Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, they'd be violent regardless.

The other problem that's just fueling the hatred is the lack of awareness and knowledge on Islam itself. We all naturally fear what we don't understand and we hate what we fear. There are a lot of inaccurate assumptions and misinformation about it particularly in the West, even worse the "sources" they often go to are not the ideal representatives of Islam, either because translate very poorly or worse, they're bigots themselves.

One of the issues is the incessant alienation of Islam and Muslims to non-Muslims. Whatever powers that be are adamant on keeping Muslims seem like distant, faceless creatures; an imminent threat that's looming over everything you believe in. This is coming from all sides, including ignorant Muslims who equally don't give a shit.

One thing I see a lot of is the use unfamiliar jargon to describe something in a language that already has the vocabulary. Practically everything in Islamic doctrine has a word in English, yet many people insist on transliterating Arabic words rather than translating and using the words we already have. This instantly alienates listeners and widens the gap between our common humanity.

I'm not big on conspiracy theories but in the case of the world view on Islam it's hard not to think there's something pushing an agenda with vicious propaganda. I refuse to believe that the average person does not understand nor empathize with other people. Fear is a big motivator and it is being triggered and taken advantage of. This applies to all sides, we all need to look past the images that are displayed for us.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Reza Aslan vs Bill Maher.
« Reply #9 on: Sunday, October 05, 2014, 07:58:46 AM »
Political correctness aside, it is logical to determine your targets before you take aim; if you "spray and pray" you're far more likely to cause massive amounts of collateral damage. To put it mildly, it's lazy to not give a shit about who is in the way and just kill everything in the general vicinity.

It is so easy to generalize because we don't want to put in the effort to study and learn about what we "hate;" instead let's just hate that entire demographic/hemisphere/country/religion/ethnicity/etc. We prefer to label things to make it easy to identify as the object of our hatred. Quite often we mislabel things because it's the faster or easier option "believes in God, believes in angels, doesn't agree with me.. Ungh, chuck it under 'religious zealot' category."

In this context, we look at two or three "muslim countries" (to quote a label) and assume that they represent the entire population of ~1.6B muslims around the world. What we neglect is that the problem is the people involved. It doesn't matter what religion they have; if they were Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, they'd be violent regardless.

The other problem that's just fueling the hatred is the lack of awareness and knowledge on Islam itself. We all naturally fear what we don't understand and we hate what we fear. There are a lot of inaccurate assumptions and misinformation about it particularly in the West, even worse the "sources" they often go to are not the ideal representatives of Islam, either because translate very poorly or worse, they're bigots themselves.

One of the issues is the incessant alienation of Islam and Muslims to non-Muslims. Whatever powers that be are adamant on keeping Muslims seem like distant, faceless creatures; an imminent threat that's looming over everything you believe in. This is coming from all sides, including ignorant Muslims who equally don't give a shit.

One thing I see a lot of is the use unfamiliar jargon to describe something in a language that already has the vocabulary. Practically everything in Islamic doctrine has a word in English, yet many people insist on transliterating Arabic words rather than translating and using the words we already have. This instantly alienates listeners and widens the gap between our common humanity.

I'm not big on conspiracy theories but in the case of the world view on Islam it's hard not to think there's something pushing an agenda with vicious propaganda. I refuse to believe that the average person does not understand nor empathize with other people. Fear is a big motivator and it is being triggered and taken advantage of. This applies to all sides, we all need to look past the images that are displayed for us.

Great post, X.  I read it carefully several times.  I have so much I want to say in my mind right now, but I can't seem to get it organized into words.  So much thought and memory has been stimulated by this thread, and now by your post.  Let me start throwing it out there, and hopefully a cohesive whole will form.

My father's partner was Persian--Iranian, to be specific.  They had an office near where I sit right now.  His family and ours became friends.  I guess as recent transplants from other places and cultures, we sort of clicked fairly well together.  His oldest daughter is about my age, and although we never dated, we liked each other quite a bit.  Her name is Sima.  Lovely girl, back in our youth anyway.  I haven't seen her in years.

What popped that into my head were your comments about generalization and ignorance.  You made me wonder--am I guilty of these?  After some thought, I can say confidently that no, I am not.  Just the opposite, in fact.  I'm trying to narrow the focus, not broaden it.  We should all be doing the same.  I agree that we shouldn't spray and pray.  But is that what we're doing?  I don't think so.

A fugitive son takes refuge in the family home. SWAT surrounds the house.  The family hunkers down in fear.  The father's thoughts are a blur.  "What do I do?  Why did I let my son go this far astray?"  He sees the terror in his daughter's eyes, the grief in his wife's.  "I need to protect them!  I need to save my family."  Does he talk to his son?  No, he's tried and failed, many times.  And now his son is armed to the teeth, ready to kill whatever gets in his way.  Does he turn him in?  How?  Getting shot won't save the family.  It may get them killed instead, when his loud death ushers in the explosive chaos.  So he suffers in silence, and hopes that when the shooting starts, everyone's aim will be true.

Can we avoid a similar tragic scenario on a global scale?  I don't know.  I hope so.  You're right that it has nothing to do with Islam per se.  But the fact is that a perverse use of Islam is what gives unity and power to these barbaric actors.  Perhaps Sinn Fein might have tarnished Catholicism to the point that Jihadists have tarnished Islam in the eyes of so many.  Luckily, they didn't have nearly the power, the brutality or the scale needed for that.  They were choir boys by comparison.

When the shooting starts, many innocents will die.  Isn't that happening already?  I find it difficult to watch the news about ISIS and their many victims.  It's heartbreaking, and it's unthinkable; yet there it is, outside the pages of a Frank Miller book, really happening.  That has to fucking stop.  Innocents may die, but it has to fucking stop.  The longer we do nothing, the more innocents will die before it's all over.  Shame on us for doing nothing for so long.

We need more like Ezra Aslan, and less like Ben Affleck.  Bill Maher?  I don't know.  He pisses me off as often as he makes me laugh.  He makes some good points at times, and twists the truth to suit his politics at others.  But in a world where drawing a cartoon can bring a price on your head, I can't fault him for taking on the subject in such a public venue.  It does take some big brass ones.  I hope he strives for accuracy, and survives the attempt.

Offline scottws

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Re: Reza Aslan vs Bill Maher.
« Reply #10 on: Sunday, October 05, 2014, 08:03:43 AM »
I haven't watched either video yet, so I can't comment directly on the content.  I also don't intend to comment on the subject matter being discussed here until I do, but I did want to say that I agree that fear is a big motivator and it is so clear that politicians love to leverage it.

Consider the recent story Ars Techica ran where they reported that the EFF discovered that there is a company out there that has been pushing some shoddy spyware-like software to police departments since the 1990's called ComputerCOP.  The software maker claims endorsement from various organizations where the endorsement was supposed to last a limited time period and expired long ago or the endorsement is a complete fabrication in the first place.  The software is cheap, but it's pretty useless or even harmful and they are using public funds to pay for this crap.

So Ars runs the story, and a bunch of readers contact various police departments about it.  Some friggin' backwater sheriff somewhere responds that because the EFF decries the use of this software, they are "interested in protecting predators and pedophiles".  I mean that's just fear mongering right there.  It's the kind of thing that has caused political deadlock in this country.  People are afraid to act because opponents will just say they are defending terrorists or murderers or pedophiles.  Just last night I saw a negative ad about some amendment on TV down here in Florida and they were saying "Vote 'No' on Amendment 2 and say no to drug dealers", as if the amendment was written to promote drug dealing.

It's true.  Fear is a powerful motivator.

Offline Xessive

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Re: Reza Aslan vs Bill Maher.
« Reply #11 on: Sunday, October 05, 2014, 09:10:23 AM »
Great post, X.  I read it carefully several times.  I have so much I want to say in my mind right now, but I can't seem to get it organized into words.  So much thought and memory has been stimulated by this thread, and now by your post.  Let me start throwing it out there, and hopefully a cohesive whole will form.

My father's partner was Persian--Iranian, to be specific.  They had an office near where I sit right now.  His family and ours became friends.  I guess as recent transplants from other places and cultures, we sort of clicked fairly well together.  His oldest daughter is about my age, and although we never dated, we liked each other quite a bit.  Her name is Sima.  Lovely girl, back in our youth anyway.  I haven't seen her in years.

What popped that into my head were your comments about generalization and ignorance.  You made me wonder--am I guilty of these?  After some thought, I can say confidently that no, I am not.  Just the opposite, in fact.  I'm trying to narrow the focus, not broaden it.  We should all be doing the same.  I agree that we shouldn't spray and pray.  But is that what we're doing?  I don't think so.

A fugitive son takes refuge in the family home. SWAT surrounds the house.  The family hunkers down in fear.  The father's thoughts are a blur.  "What do I do?  Why did I let my son go this far astray?"  He sees the terror in his daughter's eyes, the grief in his wife's.  "I need to protect them!  I need to save my family."  Does he talk to his son?  No, he's tried and failed, many times.  And now his son is armed to the teeth, ready to kill whatever gets in his way.  Does he turn him in?  How?  Getting shot won't save the family.  It may get them killed instead, when his loud death ushers in the explosive chaos.  So he suffers in silence, and hopes that when the shooting starts, everyone's aim will be true.

Can we avoid a similar tragic scenario on a global scale?  I don't know.  I hope so.  You're right that it has nothing to do with Islam per se.  But the fact is that a perverse use of Islam is what gives unity and power to these barbaric actors.  Perhaps Sinn Fein might have tarnished Catholicism to the point that Jihadists have tarnished Islam in the eyes of so many.  Luckily, they didn't have nearly the power, the brutality or the scale needed for that.  They were choir boys by comparison.

When the shooting starts, many innocents will die.  Isn't that happening already?  I find it difficult to watch the news about ISIS and their many victims.  It's heartbreaking, and it's unthinkable; yet there it is, outside the pages of a Frank Miller book, really happening.  That has to fucking stop.  Innocents may die, but it has to fucking stop.  The longer we do nothing, the more innocents will die before it's all over.  Shame on us for doing nothing for so long.

We need more like Ezra Aslan, and less like Ben Affleck.  Bill Maher?  I don't know.  He pisses me off as often as he makes me laugh.  He makes some good points at times, and twists the truth to suit his politics at others.  But in a world where drawing a cartoon can bring a price on your head, I can't fault him for taking on the subject in such a public venue.  It does take some big brass ones.  I hope he strives for accuracy, and survives the attempt.
Thanks, Cobra. By the way, I wasn't suggesting that you (specifically) were guilty of any of it. Ironically, I was generalizing about humanity as a whole. I can certainly empathize with you. Extreme situations can put people in uncompromising positions, where the choices seem bleak.

I agree with you that inaction has been a serious detriment on a global scale. One has to wonder who will act? And when someone acts, their motives are immediately in question, for obvious reasons and rightly so.

Lord knows I've generalized and made assumptions about others, out of convenience or apathy. These are mistakes I've learned from and want to avoid in the future, despite knowing that I'm only human and will undoubtedly falter, I will strive to do my best. In the process I'll do what I can to pass on what I learn too.

Being the unrelenting idealist, I firmly have faith in the virtues of humanity, particularly in our little group. Think about us: technology has granted us the ability to surpass our boundaries and communicate across so much space, and given how long most of us have been in touch, across so much time as well. It is pretty f*cking incredible. I take it to heart that people like us, who are open to dialogue, constructive assessment, and speak so openly, can change the world. It's an uphill struggle, no doubt, but at the very least we create little pockets of peace amid the chaos strewn all around us.

Offline scottws

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Re: Re: Reza Aslan vs Bill Maher.
« Reply #12 on: Sunday, October 05, 2014, 09:26:30 AM »
I've watched both videos.  I completely agree with Reza Aslan.  We do have to be careful about getting into a pattern of thinking where we believe "Muslim = jihadist" or "Muslim = abuser of basic civil rights".   These examples are along the same line of thinking as "black people are criminals".  Such attitudes are not constructive and simply exacerbate the various issues.

At the same time we don't want to be so careful that we go so far to the other side of thinking where we are like Ben Affleck.  We can't be so afraid to be bigoted that we ignore the realities of the situation.

The facts are that these crazy ISIL/ISIS/Al Quaida/etc people are Muslim (or at least identify with Islam).  Its also true that there are many more people that are Muslim that are not anything like ISIL/ISIS/Al Quaida/etc.  But we can't be so seized by the fear of running afoul of political correctness that we denounce those that are trying to constructively solve  the problem.

As for Bill Maher, I agree with Cobra. There are times where I'm cheering him on and other times where I want to punch him.  In this case I think he's painting with a very broad brush and I think the fact that he is a staunch atheist heavily influences his thoughts on the matter.  He's not a passive atheist either.  He believes atheists should denounce all religion and label their adherents as basically crazy people that shouldn't be trusted.

Edit:  Clarity.
« Last Edit: Monday, October 06, 2014, 08:18:20 AM by scottws »

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Reza Aslan vs Bill Maher.
« Reply #13 on: Monday, October 06, 2014, 07:19:59 AM »
Atheism itself is a belief system--a religion, in an way.  And I can't think of a single time in history when militancy in the name of any religion was a good thing.  You're right about Maher.  He doesn't want to live and let live.  He wants to impose his belief system.  Does anyone practice the golden rule anymore?

Thanks for your posts, guys.  I am glad to be a part of our little group too.  I only wish this kind of dialogue and thought would spread to the sad corners of the world that could really use it.

Offline scottws

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Re: Reza Aslan vs Bill Maher.
« Reply #14 on: Monday, October 06, 2014, 08:30:49 AM »
I agree that atheism itself is a religion of sorts, and trumpeting "There is no God!  You are stupid and/or crazy!" is not really all that different than some Bible-thumper standing on the corner shouting out their brand of their own religion.

I'm agnostic at this point, though Jennie is Catholic and wants to raise my stepson is Catholic and I support her in that endeavor since it is important to her.  Essentially I fake it for Jennie.

I don't believe there is anything wrong to adhering to a religion in and of itself except under two conditions:

* Religion should be taught as a metaphor, model, or parable rather than a true historical depiction of events.  Failure to do so can undermine scientific teaching, especially when the school curriculum are modified to neuter scientific teaching that seems to refute religions teaching when a strict or literal interpretation of the religious documents or teaching is applied.  Proper science teaching is paramount to human survival and advancement.
* A religion shouldn't require its adherents to force it upon others.  I would go as far as to say even if your religion doesn't require this, adherents shouldn't try to do it anyway.

There is nothing wrong with a personal endeavor to be "holy" in the general sense of the word from a Christian point of view, because that will ultimately make you a good person in the eyes of anyone anywhere looking.  And there is nothing wrong in believing in a higher power or state of being or reincarnation or trying to attain it as long as it doesn't result in you attempting to handicap human survival and progress.  But when the religion you follow violates either of the two conditions mentioned above, I'm sorry but your religion has got to go.