Topic: 'No Santa' school teacher axed

[Xessive]

The Sun Online: 'No Santa' school teacher axed

A PRIMARY school sacked a woman teacher for telling heartbroken nine-year-olds there is no Father Christmas.

Parents were furious when tearful youngsters went home saying they had also been taught elves and fairies did not exist either.

The supply teacher, in her 30s, had her contract terminated after complaints to the head. Mum Amanda Piovesana, 30, said her daughter was shocked to be told: “You are old enough to know there is no Santa or fairies. If you ask your parents they will also say there is no such thing.”

Amanda said: “It’s taken away the magic.” The mum of another pupil at Boldmere Junior School in Sutton Coldfield, West Midlands, said: “Everyone is disgusted.” Head Diane Thomas-Wood confirmed: “We have followed up the matter with the agency.”

I don't know about you guys, but I thought that was utter bullshit. The one quote that irritated me the most was "It’s taken away the magic." Geez, sod off!! What if it were other students who told the kids there was "no Santa?" I doubt it would have been a real issue, or a "news worthy" one at that.

When I was a kid in Infant 3 (equivalent of Grade 3) we eventually figured out there was "no Santa" and it wasn't Earth-shatteringly devastating as some of these parents make it seem. Even though we were all aware that Santa Claus was not real we all still had a good time. The "magic" is not in the mystery and lies surrounding the myth of Santa Claus, it's in having a great time and getting a frickin' present! Hell if we didn't get presents, we still enjoyed the games we played around the season.

As muslims, we never celebrated Christmas as a religious holiday. It was more of a cultural thing, or an excuse to party and gather with family and friends.

[Quemaqua]

*Shrug*  I figured out way the hell before 9 that there was no Santa, and my parents certainly didn't care being they were religious people who felt Santa was a stupid idea in the first place (and I happen to agree), but I'm also big into leaving some magic in childhood and that you should let kids enjoy the one time in their life when they can believe in fake shit and not feel idiotic about it.  I hate people that insist we shouldn't lie to our kids, blah blah blah, as though believing in Santa could somehow irreparably harm a child's ability to grow up later.  If they want to believe in Santa, let them fucking believe in Santa.   Should the chick have been fired?  That seems pretty excessive for something that is more or less of no real consequence.  They might have told her to knock it off and let people decide when they want let their apparently gullible children in on the joke, but firing seems ridiculous.  I'll bet that chick is pissed.

[WindAndConfusion]

I remember that when I was still in Kindergarten, I was really pissed off that all the big people I knew were condescending jerks who lied to me all the time.

I'll bet that chick is pissed.

I'm not normally one for litigiousness, but I hope she sues for wrongful termination.

[Xessive]

I'm all for enriching children's imagination, but parents getting overly sensitive over a fictional character is ridiculous. It's like telling your kids that Mickey Mouse is not real. I'm beginning to relate this to that other topic we were discussing about the "wussification" of our future generations. The parents are so frickin' soft that they have to cater to every whim of the children. I believe parents should cater to their kids' needs, but not spoil them. They have to instil a sense of reality in their kids, so they can tell the difference between what's real and what's not on their own.

The parents are taking this way too seriously, and the fact that a teacher lost her job over such a stupid trivial matter is retarded.

[Quemaqua]

Well, that's my point.  Telling kids doesn't help them tell the difference on their own.  Letting them figure it out like normal kids does.  And I think it's odd that kids that old haven't figured it out already.

[idolminds]

Its stupid she would tell them, its stupid the kids by that age didn't figure it out on their own, its stupid they fired her, and its stupid the parents are making a big deal out it.

Can you see where I'm going with this?

[Ghandi]

That people are smert?

I don't even remember when I figured out Santa wasn't real, but it was damn sure before 9.

[scottws]

I agree the firing may have been a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to the incident, but come on... the teacher should know that it's not her place to tell children such things.

I know it sounds stupid when you think of it like "Why is it such a big deal that someone told kids that fairies and things like that don't exist when they don't?"  But you have to remember that Santa Claus is a big cultural thing.  Practically every kid believes in him and our culture firmly supports that belief.  The revelation - whether from smart detective work or information from an outside source - that Santa Claus is not real is a big deal in every kid's life.

Kids should be able to figure it out on their own or have it revealed by their parents.  To have a teacher telling an entire class is pretty ridiculous.

[Cobra951]

I'm surprised no one here had a stronger reaction on behalf of the heartbroken children and dismayed parents.  Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, Easter bunny, etc, are fantasies that very young children are traditionally expected to have, and remember fondly in later years, and delight in again when they have their own children.  A teacher has no business deciding when young children should stop believing.  That needs to be left to parents, or for the children to figure out.  A less drastic solution here may have been to transfer the teacher to higher grades, if she qualifies.  I'm sure young teens would be a safe group.  But under no circumstances would I allow this person to ruin the illusions of any more little children.  That's simply not her call.

[scottws]

I agree completely Cobra, and that is exactly what I was trying to get across.  I think most of the others here are too far removed from their own experience as a child and/or don't have children of their own and so do not understand fully the perspective of the parents and children.

[Antares]

9 year olds are in what... 4th grade?  Seems a little old to still believe in Santa, still though the teacher was clearly out of line.  I think firing her may have been a little over the top, but there are some things teachers should leave to parents.

[Xessive]

We can all agree that it wasn't the teacher's call to make, but firing her is excessive.

I recall as a child that we had a fair understanding of the differences between fantasy and reality. I never really kept to heart that the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, the Easter bunny, or even Halloween witches really existed. I don't think any of the kids around did either (although there was that one kid who had a phobia of masks). We generally understood that they were fictional characters for the sake of fun and fantasy.. Like the Never Ending Story! The idea that they could be real in our minds' eyes was the real anxiety.

Our parents always encouraged us to explore our imagination, but we had to be safe, so they told us the obvious things like "Superman is not real, he can't really fly, it's a movie effect." And eventually the Santa Claus question came up.

I think I was around 7 or 7½ when I was in Infant 3, and besides noticing that every year it was a different guy (or girl) in a Santa suit, we eventually started questioning the nature of old St. Nick. Nonetheless yankin' on the old guy's beard was amusing at the time. Plus there was realizing that the only person I ever told about the gift I wanted was my dad, how the heck did Santa know?! Oh My God Santa is my dad! No, that doesn't make sense. Duh!

I still imagine what it would be like if Santa really existed! The guy would logically have to be fat in order to withstand the cold!

[Cobra951]

I did believe, and it was a shock to me when my parents told me.  I had been hearing from other students that Santa was your parents, but I didn't believe it, until my parents confirmed it.  Quite a letdown at first, but then I felt like I had passed some sort of test, and become more mature and knowledgeable.  Now I was entrusted with keeping the secret from my younger siblings.

My older daughter cried when she found out, and she decided to continue believing through that Christmas.  She would not hear of it being untrue until afterward.  If a teacher had caused that deep disillusionment, she'd be lucky if I was satisfied with the loss of her job alone.

My 6-year-old still believes, but I have a feeling she'll know by next Christmas.  First-borns like me and my older girl are more naive and innocent.

[Xessive]

I did believe, and it was a shock to me when my parents told me.  I had been hearing from other students that Santa was your parents, but I didn't believe it, until my parents confirmed it.  Quite a letdown at first, but then I felt like I had passed some sort of test, and become more mature and knowledgeable.  Now I was entrusted with keeping the secret from my younger siblings.

My older daughter cried when she found out, and she decided to continue believing through that Christmas.  She would not hear of it being untrue until afterward.  If a teacher had caused that deep disillusionment, she'd be lucky if I was satisfied with the loss of her job alone.

My 6-year-old still believes, but I have a feeling she'll know by next Christmas.  First-borns like me and my older girl are more naive and innocent.

Dude that's adorable! It's awesome! Your daughter has the dedication and conviction to believe what she chooses! I almost can't wait to have kids of my own

Yeah, we first-borns are the "experimental phase" hehe We don't have older siblings to to learn from and observe, and our parents learn the "do's and don'ts" with us hehe

[Cobra951]

Which might explain a bit about why I'm so screwed up.     We're on our own, free to screw up royally without any interference.

[idolminds]

My mom still makes us Santa bags with goodies...as long as we believe in Santa. So its all good for me.

For me I figured this stuff out at a very early age. My mom still recalls the time we were waiting in line at the mall to see the Easter Bunny. I was very little at the time, couldn't be more then 4 or 5. She says when I saw the guy dressed as the bunny, it was over. "Thats not the easter bunny. The head isn't real. Its a guy dressed up!" She tried to quiet me because the other parents and kids in line were glaring at me, but I just wouldn't go with it. Eventually she took me out of line because I was going to ruin it for everyone else.

[Xessive]

The Easter Bunny made the least sense to me. I loved Easter egg hunts! I still do! Well, scavenger hunts anyway.

Now this Easter Bunny makes some sense

[Quemaqua]

That is awesome.  Best parts were when he ran off with the musician's money and then jumped the guy in the elevator.

[ren]

That is awesome.  Best parts were when he ran off with the musician's money and then jumped the guy in the elevator.

I'm not going to watch the video now. There's no way it can be as awesome as the mental picture you created with that sentence.

[iPPi]

Haha I remember seeing that video years ago.  Still hilarious

[Antares]

Sweet, my fav part was when he took the guy's ice cream then handed it back only to smack it back out of his hand.

[Xessive]

[nickclone]

I think you all are missing the point, its not the point that Santa isn't real or what you consider the cut off age for believing in Santa is. The fact is that its none of the teacher's business to mess with the kids' beliefs, no matter how stupid she thinks they are. How about is she went around telling the children there was no God? Whats the cut off age for believing in that bullshit?

[Xessive]

I think you all are missing the point, its not the point that Santa isn't real or what you consider the cut off age for believing in Santa is. The fact is that its none of the teacher's business to mess with the kids' beliefs, no matter how stupid she thinks they are. How about is she went around telling the children there was no God? Whats the cut off age for believing in that bullshit?

I agree that it wasn't her business, but getting fired is overkill!

We had a few people claiming there was no God, or there were several Gods when I was in elementary school, but that didn't really budge us.. We just stuck to what we believed and what our parents taught us. Now the difference is if anyone (student or teacher) officially confronted the school and said something like "There is NO GOD!" then there might be a problem.. But it would be an individual case, and they'd investigate that specific individual. There wouldn't be any parents going berserk over it. If a teacher instructed her students that "there is no God" there would be a case for a disciplinary committee, but not to get fired right off the bat! In the end the children's concern would be what their parents tell them.

Back home, Islamic Studies is a class just like any other, of course non-muslims can be exempt from it. They usually got a free period.. Lucky bastards Anyway, we basically studied Islamic history, laws, the Qur'an, recitals, etc. Looking back it was good stuff. It helped instil a lot of the basic knowledge I need to follow my religion. That might be one reason why we don't take words at face value.. As muslims we're taught to question everything (at least I was).

[Quemaqua]

Not to mention believing in Santa and believing in God are two entirely different things.

And since I can already hear the comment coming, if all you're going to add is, "haha, no it isn't, omg look how witty I am comparing God to Santa", or if you even have the urge to make the comment, jab a fork into your eye to distract yourself until the urge passes.

[nickclone]

Not to mention believing in Santa and believing in God are two entirely different things.

And since I can already hear the comment coming, if all you're going to add is, "haha, no it isn't, omg look how witty I am comparing God to Santa", or if you even have the urge to make the comment, jab a fork into your eye to distract yourself until the urge passes.

Pfft! Please! Aren't we a little old for this type of argument? This kind of tactic was old even when we all were over at the PC boards at IGN. You say I'm an asshole for responding in an attempt to keep me from continuing the discussion so it looks like you "won". Don't be afraid of a little confrontation, I won't hurt ya.

You're right though, comparing Santa to God is wrong. We have a lot more proof showing Santa actually exists. I don't care if its some fat assed, child molesting, parolee wearing a red suit at the local shopping mall or a drawing of St. Nick on the side of a Coke bottle, Santa has more presence than God any day of the week. Not only that, but Santa only has two rules: believe in him and don't be naughty. If you can manage by those two rules you get presents, simple enough. God has so many rules, one contradicting the other, he wants you to go church, obey him, have faith in him and he doesn't show you anything in return.

Santa is made up by parents to have their children believe in something and behave themselves. I guess thats the reason for someone making up God for people to fear. I think we're all a little old to believe in this "Earth created in six days" shit and that God created humans from dirt and bones.

P.S. I didn't mean to imply that the teacher should be fired, she should be punished though.

[TheOtherBelmont]

How about is she went around telling the children there was no God? Whats the cut off age for believing in that bullshit?

I don't believe in God, but I think that comment wasn't really relevant to the conversation and uncalled for.  Your comparison to God and Santa seems like more of a comment to rile people up than actually adding to the conversation.

[nickclone]

I don't believe in God, but I think that comment wasn't really relevant to the conversation and uncalled for.  Your comparison to God and Santa seems like more of a comment to rile people up than actually adding to the conversation.

Surely you won't convict me of a crime, I swear it was in self defense.

[ren]

In this case, comparing Santa to God is completely accurate. I don't mean in spiritual terms...just relevance. To many little kids, Santa is probably on a much higher level than God. Morals are based on Santa, not God. Parents threaten their kids with Santa, not God. So Nick's comparison is just, and I agree with him.

but firing was way too harsh.

[Cobra951]

I have used the analogy of Santa Claus when discussing the possibility that religion is no less of a fantasy  (e.g., Santa Claus: fantasy for children; the Trinity: fantasy for adults).  Our parents are there to confirm the growing rumors that there is no Santa.  But no one can confirm the possibility that there is no benevolent, fatherly God watching over us.  This doesn't go over well with devout people.  It's best avoided in mixed company.

[nickclone]

I have used the analogy of Santa Claus when discussing the possibility that religion is no less of a fantasy  (e.g., Santa Claus: fantasy for children; the Trinity: fantasy for adults).  Our parents are there to confirm the growing rumors that there is no Santa.  But no one can confirm the possibility that there is no benevolent, fatherly God watching over us.  This doesn't go over well with devout people.  It's best avoided in mixed company.

I don't understand why it has to be avoided? Is it because there really is a chance that there is no God? It can't be because we should respect others beliefs, I can't tell you how many times I've gone...anywhere and had Christians literally follow me around trying to preach to me. I just think they can dish it out, but can't take it.

[Cobra951]

I don't understand why it has to be avoided? Is it because there really is a chance that there is no God? It can't be because we should respect others beliefs, I can't tell you how many times I've gone...anywhere and had Christians literally follow me around trying to preach to me. I just think they can dish it out, but can't take it.

The 2nd, because we should respect others' beliefs.  More practically, because there's zero chance we'll talk anyone out of their beliefs, and a sizeable chance we'll piss them off.  No pros, all cons. 

The people you call Christians are fanatical pests.  Don't judge all Christians by their example.

[Quemaqua]

What you said was in no way relevant to the discussion, it was only relevant in *your* mind because you're an ignorant fuck with a giant chip on his shoulder.  So please, talk all you want.  I won't be here to listen to it.

[nickclone]

What you said was in no way relevant to the discussion, it was only relevant in *your* mind because you're an ignorant fuck with a giant chip on his shoulder.  So please, talk all you want.  I won't be here to listen to it.

Keep talking like that and God won't bring you that new bike you wanted.

[TheOtherBelmont]

I don't understand why it has to be avoided? Is it because there really is a chance that there is no God? It can't be because we should respect others beliefs, I can't tell you how many times I've gone...anywhere and had Christians literally follow me around trying to preach to me. I just think they can dish it out, but can't take it.

No one here is trying to convert you, nor will they try, like Cobra said, don't judge all Christians by the small minority of the fanatics.  There isn't a need to avoid talking about your beliefs and your views on Christianity, but the main problem is discussing it in the approriate topic i.e. the Serious Topics section or even a topic on religion.  I understand the point you were trying to make with comparing Santa to God but it wasn't needed in this topic, everyone respects one another's beliefs here.  I have never been ostracized for being Atheist by anyone here and I don't think anyone here ever will.  The least you can do is to not mock someone else's religion and make snide comments about it in a topic that doesn't even pertain to religion.  In the "Life" topic, there is a discussion that is delving into religion/science right now and everyone is discussing it in an intelligent manner and not mocking another's beliefs.  Like Que said, it seems as if you have a chip on your shoulder, and if you are being harassed by Christians as much as you say you are than you have every right to have that chip on your shoulder, just don't take it out on the people here who are cool enough to respect your beliefs.

[nickclone]

No one here is trying to convert you, nor will they try, like Cobra said, don't judge all Christians by the small minority of the fanatics.  There isn't a need to avoid talking about your beliefs and your views on Christianity, but the main problem is discussing it in the approriate topic i.e. the Serious Topics section or even a topic on religion.  I understand the point you were trying to make with comparing Santa to God but it wasn't needed in this topic, everyone respects one another's beliefs here.  I have never been ostracized for being Atheist by anyone here and I don't think anyone here ever will.  The least you can do is to not mock someone else's religion and make snide comments about it in a topic that doesn't even pertain to religion.  In the "Life" topic, there is a discussion that is delving into religion/science right now and everyone is discussing it in an intelligent manner and not mocking another's beliefs.  Like Que said, it seems as if you have a chip on your shoulder, and if you are being harassed by Christians as much as you say you are than you have every right to have that chip on your shoulder, just don't take it out on the people here who are cool enough to respect your beliefs.

All I did was say my piece and I got flamed for it, yet I'm the bad guy? A lot of people seemed to on the teacher's side for telling the kids that there wasn't a Santa Clause, all I did was put a different perspective on it.  Besides, how many threads on this board actually stay on topic? Some things just never change.

Why does everyone think I have a chip on my shoulder? Does saying so make it easier to dismiss me as a troll so when I post something that displeases the masses everyone can say "there goes that crazy Nickclone again"? Have I really said anything to merit such horrible treatment from my fellow man? Despite how you feel, I honestly believe the Santa/God comparison goes together very nicely. On the other hand, if anyone can think of an intelligent and polite way to put Santa and God in a boxing ring I'm open to suggestions.

[PyroMenace]

If you dont like what we have to say then just leave. I know it sounds harsh and how we are all assholes, but your arguments go nowhere and you never understand. I mean I wanted to beat my head against the wall when I read what you were posting, and I was gonna type something up to argue then I remembered that it would literary do nothing. You would probably respond with something totally irrelevant and miss the point entirely then go on some tangent and it always makes my head hurt. Tet already explained pretty much what you should have done, and all your questions were answered in previous posts. Do what you wish, I dont care. 

[TheOtherBelmont]

All I did was say my piece and I got flamed for it, yet I'm the bad guy? A lot of people seemed to on the teacher's side for telling the kids that there wasn't a Santa Clause, all I did was put a different perspective on it.  Besides, how many threads on this board actually stay on topic? Some things just never change.

Why does everyone think I have a chip on my shoulder? Does saying so make it easier to dismiss me as a troll so when I post something that displeases the masses everyone can say "there goes that crazy Nickclone again"? Have I really said anything to merit such horrible treatment from my fellow man? Despite how you feel, I honestly believe the Santa/God comparison goes together very nicely. On the other hand, if anyone can think of an intelligent and polite way to put Santa and God in a boxing ring I'm open to suggestions.

I came to the conclusion that you had a chip on your shoulder from your statement about Christians "following you around, trying to preach to you".  Yes the topics on these boards go off topic very often, but very rarely do they go off topic into a serious discussion about religion and in that very rare occurence it is done without making another person's religion seem childish.  I am Atheist, yet I do not nor will I ever view another person's religion as something of a childish fantasy, like Santa Claus.  Santa is a childish fantasy figure in both the eyes of the religious and the non religious(unless there is some Church of Santa I am unaware of).  The way you talk about God is very demeaning and I don't blame Que for his initial reaction towards you.  How would you feel if you were in Que's shoes and someone was comparing your God to a fat, jolly man in red?  Most people who are religious take their beliefs fairly seriously and there are ways of disagreeing with them in a tactful manner.  Calling someone's religion "bullshit" is not tactful.

[nickclone]

I've got a great idea, a way I can say what I want and a way for you to censor me. I'll post what I want to say, then I give permission to any of the mods to edit my posts to what I "should say". Sounds like a good compromise, a little give and take...even if I'm doing all the giving and you the taking. Well what can I say, it is better to give than to receive.

Why can every other topic of discussion be held in any type of way anyone chooses, but the discussion of God warrants the walking on eggshells? If your belief is so strong a man you've never seen before, who you write off as a troll, shouldn't be able to effect your way of life. All in all its just text.

[Quemaqua]

You're giving yourself way too much credit.  Your idiocy doesn't threaten me, it annoys me, and it in no way pertains to the conversation at hand, regardless of what a few other misguided posters might have encouraged you to think.  That's why I'm annoyed.  I don't mind a discussion or argument, but I was attempting to keep it out of here since it was in no way relevant.  Your initial point was valid in terms of spinning the perspective, but your subsequent bullshit speaks for itself.  I said what I said initially because I didn't want to see this thread turn into exactly what it's turned into, because it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic and is little more than an exercise in futility.  So please, continue on all you want.  Anybody that looks at your life can see just how well you've put your belief system to use, so you go ahead and keep spouting off and try to forget that you can't even manage to make a success of a completely rule-free life philosophy.  I have no intention of converting you, and I've been one of the few people here to actually give you the benefit of the doubt during some of your more questionable periods.  I don't suppose you even remember that.  So congratulations, you've converted *me*.  Now I have as little respect for you as everyone else here.