Topic: Ground zero mosque

[Pugnate]

This sums up my feelings on the matter as well:

&feature=player_embedded#!

It isn't even a mosque, and it isn't even at ground zero. For the past few months, I've been following the ridiculousness of it all. The paranoia has been absurd.

So yea, I just watched that video, and while I haven't always agreed with that guy, he speaks the truth on the community center.

Anyway, before commenting, please watch the video... especially Cobra.

[Cobra951]

He brings the holocaust into the picture.  Ha!  There is one key difference, Pug.  No faction of Judaism, however small, pursued the destruction of Western civilization with dogged tenacity or ample funding.  Let's not equate hatred for its own sake with vigilance or justified fear.  If you have a beehive in your backyard, you keep a wary eye on it, even if you know all they want to do is pollinate flowers and make honey, and even if you think that only one of those bees might ever sting you.

He's full of shit about Spain too.  Spain fought back the moors (los moros) after centuries of occupation.  The moors weren't there in peaceful enlightenment to begin with, as he seems to imply.  There is still a lot of cultural influence in Spain from that period.  Cordoba is part of it.

[sirean_syan]

It's a simple matter really: The mosque will be on private land and the local authorities approved it's construction. Freedom of religion allows for places of worship to be built and if the local population allows it, then that should be all that's needed.

I guess you could get into if it's really a good idea or if it's the appropriate thing to do (built it or allow construction), but our opinions really don't matter since this is a local issue. If someone wants to claim its an insult to 911 victims or something like that, New Yorkers are as close to the event at you can get. Again, so they have another claim to be the major voice in the discussion. I would be curious to learn what people from the city actually think. Most of what I've heard comes from people who tent to speak for more... conservative people (I was in Texas when I heard of lot of the discussion).

[gpw11]

Yeah, it's really a case where you look at it and you have to ask the people against it "Well, what the fuck do you do?"  Regardless of whether you think it may or may not be tasteless, I don't see any plausible way of stopping it that wouldn't be considered government sponsored discrimination on the basis of religion (Note: I am not a constitutional lawyer).  So, you really have to pose the question of whether or not those who are really against it would rather a Mosque built on private property somewhere near ground zero or the idea of the government pissing all over the constitution and the values they themselves likely hold dearly. 

[Pugnate]

The community center will have a swimming pool, a basketball court, and a small prayer room on the top floor. There is an actual mosque already in place and actually closer to ground zero.

[Ghandi]

Just another reminder that most people have no idea who we are fighting and that we are hurting ourselves in the process.

Anyone who thinks that freedom is anything but an ideal is naive.

[Cobra951]

People who don't put on blinders that are based on some naive ideal of equality, you mean.

[K-man]

Freedom isn't free.

[Ghandi]

Freedom isn't free.

I believe it costs $1.05

[ren]

plus tax

[shock]

Nah, tax is included.

I don't watch the news at all, but I always enjoy Olberman shitting on the news.  He gets a bit too emotional for my tastes, but he does make good points.

[gpw11]

Olberman bugs me now. His first few rants were brilliant and it seemed genuinely inspired.  After that it just seemed like a polar opposite version of a Fox news anchor or someone watched Network one time too many.

[Ghandi]

Olberman bugs me now. His first few rants were brilliant and it seemed genuinely inspired.  After that it just seemed like a polar opposite version of a Fox news anchor or someone watched Network one time too many.

My views precisely. I find him to be a the left's version of O'reilly, although more realistic.

The 24 hour networks are a terrible place to get news. If I ever were to watch a news program on TV it would be Brain Williams, who is the best.

I generally catch everything online, and for humor go to Stewart and Colbert to dissect it, who are brilliant (although Stewart often tends to push it).

[Quemaqua]

I hate all of it and don't listen to anyone.  I'm sure this comes as a big surprise.

[scottws]

LOL.  Actually I am with you on this Que.  American media has turned into tabloid journalism and is all terrible with the possible exception of Brian Williams (as previously mentioned).

I only follow news via the BBC now.  I remember when I first started doing that I was like "Holy shit!  Real news actually exists!"

[Quemaqua]

Yeah, that's actually true.  I don't go out of my way to watch too much other stuff either, but news via the BBC or stuff I've run across from Japan is usually *far* better than what American media outlets have become.

[K-man]

Well, the market is so flooded with news outlets, typical journalism doesn't hack it any longer.  Now it's a competition to see who can one-up the other with outlandish stories, commentary, or just plain rumors.  It's less journalism and more entertainment.

[Cobra951]

I was listening to NPR on the way in this morning and there was a report about cultural centers in major cities suspending celebration of the [Eid ul-Fitr] holiday on September 11.  While I think it's a smart PR move, and I understand why the decisions were made, it still is utterly ridiculous that it has to happen.  I'm not wholly educated on Islam, but wouldn't that be akin to Christians delaying the celebration of Christmas? 

They also mentioned a poll that said 49% of Americans have a negative view of Islam.  No doubt due to Fox News and stories about extremists.  I'd wager a guess that if opinions of Christians were solely based  on the actions of backwoods fundamentalist Christian militia they'd have a huge problem with it.

No backwoods fundamentalist Christian militia ever pursued the destruction of Western civilization with dogged tenacity or ample funding.

Fox News gets a lot of blame for things, but I don't think you can blame them for this one.  People generalize; and in this case, they are generalizing based on the greatest fear they have faced in several generations.  My suggestion to Muslims who don't want to be unfairly grouped in with our mortal enemies is to step forward and help eradicate the evil that festers within their ranks.  As older Japanese Americans will attest, being passively peaceful is not good enough during times like these.  That suggestion applies anywhere in the world, including Pakistan and Afghanistan.

[K-man]

People certainly generalize, but Fox News and their ilk are certainly doing their part to make sure people don't think differently.

And the reason backwoods fundamentalist Christian militias haven't pursued destruction is because they lack the ability to organize (and the funding). 

I guess a better comparison would be the Westboro Baptist Church.

[bullshark]

My suggestion to Muslims who don't want to be unfairly grouped in with our mortal enemies is to step forward and help eradicate the evil that festers within their ranks.  As older Japanese Americans will attest, being passively peaceful is not good enough during times like these.  That suggestion applies anywhere in the world, including Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Forgive me but I am unclear what invoking older Japanese Americans is supposed to convey here.  Justification for internment camps, gratitude for Japanese American servicemen, or something else.  Please clarify, thank you.

[Cobra951]

Internment camps wouldn't happen now, and they shouldn't.  I was alluding to the general anti-Japanese attitude in America, even against those who lived here legitimately.  I have nothing but admiration for Japanese Americans, and how they handled their crisis.  They took the hate and mistrust stoically, and tried to show American patriotism as best as they could under the circumstances.  One example was going above and beyond the call of duty in the American military.  They did more than they were required to do, more than most Americans would have done, to prove their loyalty.

My parallel here is that well-meaning Muslims should go above and beyond the call of duty to demonstrate their peaceful intent, educate Western masses who think peace-loving Islam doesn't really exist, and whenever possible, help curb the violence, by exposing extremist militants, or their haunts.  Sitting on the sidelines and letting the fringe element get all the attention does not work well for them during this time.  You can point fingers at the media or at provincial Americans all you want.  The status quo won't change for the better until someone changes it.  I suggest that those with the most to lose should have the greatest interest in positive change.  The Japanese understood this, 65-70 years ago.

[bullshark]

Internment camps wouldn't happen now, and they shouldn't.  I was alluding to the general anti-Japanese attitude in America, even against those who lived here legitimately.  I have nothing but admiration for Japanese Americans, and how they handled their crisis.  They took the hate and mistrust stoically, and tried to show American patriotism as best as they could under the circumstances.  One example was going above and beyond the call of duty in the American military.  They did more than they were required to do, more than most Americans would have done, to prove their loyalty.

My parallel here is that well-meaning Muslims should go above and beyond the call of duty to demonstrate their peaceful intent, educate Western masses who think peace-loving Islam doesn't really exist, and whenever possible, help curb the violence, by exposing extremist militants, or their haunts.  Sitting on the sidelines and letting the fringe element get all the attention does not work well for them during this time.  You can point fingers at the media or at provincial Americans all you want.  The status quo won't change for the better until someone changes it.  I suggest that those with the most to lose should have the greatest interest in positive change.  The Japanese understood this, 65-70 years ago.

Ah I think I see what you are getting at.  I disagree with some of your conclusions but that's okay.

[Cools!]

I'm sort of against the mosque. It seems insensitive and too soon after 9/11. I'm all for freedom of religion, who isn't really, but there's also a time and place for things.

To me this is like any other situation where a community is opposed to building a factory, highway or whatever in the area, wether or not it's an informed opinion or not. Yes, people are misinformed about Islam right now, but if people are so opposed to building a mosque there then your first step should be to educate the people. And if people don't listen, give them time and keep trying.

[Pugnate]

It is a rec center with a mosque on a single floor, and it is many blocks away from ground zero. I think there may already be a mosque closer to the site.

[Ghandi]

It is a rec center with a mosque on a single floor, and it is many blocks away from ground zero. I think there may already be a mosque closer to the site.

Exactly.

The same people that vehemently cite the constitution on every issue don't understand freedom of religion. Have the people that built the mosque supported violence? Are they supporting suicide against other people?

It seems as though the fear of the mosque is not instigated through fact, but through religious xenophobia.

[Cobra951]

Come on.  Don't be naive.  It's not the religion itself that causes the fear.  Unfair association perhaps, but it's not religious xenophobia.  Generalizing is built deep into our psyche.  Tapir, good eats; sabretooth, eats me. 

"Have the people that built the mosque supported violence?"  I don't know.  Have they?

[Pugnate]

Pretty much what Gandhi said. You can justify bullshit stereotypes any way you want.

"Have the people that built the mosque supported violence?"  I don't know.  Have they?

fuck you.

My parallel here is that well-meaning Muslims should go above and beyond the call of duty to demonstrate their peaceful intent, educate Western masses who think peace-loving Islam doesn't really exist, and whenever possible, help curb the violence, by exposing extremist militants, or their haunts.  Sitting on the sidelines and letting the fringe element get all the attention does not work well for them during this time.  You can point fingers at the media or at provincial Americans all you want.  The status quo won't change for the better until someone changes it.  I suggest that those with the most to lose should have the greatest interest in positive change.  The Japanese understood this, 65-70 years ago.

There are plenty of well meaning Muslims who stand up for their faith and peaceful way of thinking and life. Just because you don't see them doesn't mean they should advertise to every close minded hick in the world who gets his news from networks intent on ratings rather than actual news.

Them wasting their time to convinces the likes who generalize would be equal to the average American trying convince the rest of the world that he isn't a fat stupid racist redneck. The people who have that absolutely incorrect view of Americans don't deserve to be reconditioned. It would be like talking to a brick wall.

The other point is who exactly do you present the average peace loving Muslim minding his/her own business? We get a lot of European networks, and they often show the average Muslim. If many Muslims conducted peaceful demonstration against extremism, or if powerful Muslim leaders condemned extremists, how would that be exactly shown to the racist American? How are they supposed to reach you?

Because a long time Pakistani cleric Ghamidi, who is considered one of the top five Muslim leaders across the world has condemned terrorism, suicide bombing etc. I've seen him show up on BBC several times. Has he been on Fox News?

What about the millions, and I mean MILLIONS of Indian and Pakistani Muslims who took to the streets two years ago against terrorism? What about the Muslims who marched in London?



Have you heard of that? Of course you haven't. Because you are arm chair critic, with little perspective of what is actually happening.

Here is a list of Muslim countries:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_majority_countries

Tell me how many want to kill you.

[Cobra951]

Right back at you.  If you can't handle the heated discourse without hurling epithets, after knowing me this long (as well as any one can know another online), imagine the impossibility of communication between peoples who start out from mutual fear and animosity.  This is an enormous global problem.  Generalizing is what is happening.  I'm saying it's natural, and cannot be reasoned away.  If the only daily exposure we get to Islam is death and destruction, what do you expect?  You can preach all you want that only a few of the many species of shark will attack humans, but you can bet anyone who sees a signature fin will hop out of the water in a frenzy.

Look at our mutual enemy in the face.  Look at him!  Recognize him.  Help me fight him.  Don't fight me.  It gains us nothing, and risks losing it all.

[ren]

Sure, generalizing is natural. But is the first thought in your head child rapist when you meet a priest? Do you immediately associate any Christian with creationism? If somebody got bit by a dog do you stay away from all dogs?

And you do get daily exposure to Islam every day through these forums. There are several Muslims on here, do you immediately think terrorist whenever one of them posts? You're not generalizing, you're just justifying an awful attitude.

[Cobra951]

I thought of using the pedophile priest scandal, but went with sharks instead.  Parents are less trusting of priests now.  The problem involves comparatively few priests, but it's clearly endemic.  Remember, my family is Catholic, and I have an overwhelmingly positive attitude toward the Catholic church.  This blemish is very real, though, and I will not blame the media for its negative impact on the church.  They deserve it.

I'm frankly at a loss here.  I thought we were adults living in the real world, not ostriches.  It's a two-part problem.  Part 1: lunatic fringe commits atrocities under the name of one religion, getting increasingly barbaric over time.  Part 2: this lunacy is nearly *all* that Americans get to see associated with this religion, for over 30 years, tarnishing their attitudes toward it.  Human beings generalize naturally.  It is a survival skill that got us here from the Stone Age.  We can pretend that we don't, but the pretense doesn't wash deep down, where our fears reside.  Drop some suburban princess in a dark alley in the inner city, and let's see how well her egalitarian ideals fare. 

[Xessive]

I my opinion, it just takes a little bit of resourcefulness and some intelligence to look something like Islam up and see a more balanced view of it. Muslims shouldn't have to go on an awareness campaign, we do that as a courtesy. Do we have Chinese/Japanese/Christian/Jewish/whatever awareness week? No, "awareness events" almost exclusively disease or health condition related plus Islam.

It seems to me that most people who are "living in fear" of Islam want to stay that way; they're not interested in learning more about it because they're comfortable with identifying Muslims as "enemies of the state." It's easy to point at the "evil" foreigners and say "they're the cause of all our woes." It was the Russians the last couple of decades, and the Japanese before that.

[ren]

I'm not denying radicalism is a threat, it just seems that your fears are a bit irrational. It would be like me getting angry a catholic church is being built near a school. Sure it's based on truth but it's a complete over reaction

[beo]

This thread makes me sad.

[PyroMenace]

This thread makes me have an irrational hate for old people.

[Cools!]

I agree with Cobra.

You guys sound very naive at times. How many of you would actually want to live near a Mosque? Chances are, if you ask around, a lot of people would choose to live near a church or a synagogue instead. There's a reason for that, call it racism, stereotyping, whatever, it's still present and it's going to take decades for this mentality to go away.

[Xessive]

I agree with Cobra.

You guys sound very naive at times. How many of you would actually want to live near a Mosque? Chances are, if you ask around, a lot of people would choose to live near a church or a synagogue instead. There's a reason for that, call it racism, stereotyping, whatever, it's still present and it's going to take decades for this mentality to go away.

I live near three masjids (mosques). The church is down the street.

[beo]

I really wouldn't care less about living near a mosque! What, do people who live near mosques catch aids or something? I hardly think that i'm naive, just because i'm not a bigot.

[Pugnate]

The chances are that most of you have at some point been very close to a mosque in Canada/America, without realizing it. Just some of the mosques in Toronto.

http://www.google.com.pk/search?q=mosques+in+toronto&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

You are also ignoring the fact for some reason that this isn't even a mosque. It is a rec center open to all, with a prayer floor.

I also don't understand this justification of stereotyping by shrugging it off as human nature. To me, that's more like burying your head in the sand. Women's rights, equal rights to black people, the rights of homosexuals wouldn't have been achieved if people had just blamed it on human nature to oppress them.

As for Cobra, I reacted the way I did, *because* I know him. I remember his patriotic statements after the US invaded Iraq.

I really wouldn't care less about living near a mosque! What, do people who live near mosques catch aids or something? I hardly think that i'm naive, just because i'm not a bigot.

There are a lot of British Muslims and chances are that Beo interacts with them. There are also a lot of mosques in the UK.

[angrykeebler]

[ren]

I agree with Cobra.

You guys sound very naive at times. How many of you would actually want to live near a Mosque? Chances are, if you ask around, a lot of people would choose to live near a church or a synagogue instead. There's a reason for that, call it racism, stereotyping, whatever, it's still present and it's going to take decades for this mentality to go away.

I can't tell if this is sarcastic or not. If it isn't, do you live in an overwhelmingly white place or something? These views are just foreign to me, I've never heard anybody in real life say anything like it.