Topic: Dark Souls - Demon's Souls Follow up!

[K-man]

I was really close to buying it day 1.  But I certainly don't need any more reasons to keep from playing Demon's Souls first.  The all-digital CE basically cemented it for me.  I'll definitely wait for a price drop, or maybe ask for it for Christmas or something.

[TheOtherBelmont]

So after a few minutes shy of 80 hours I have finished this and this is easily the best game I have played all year.  Anyone who has played Demon's Souls MUST get this game.  The word "epic" is used way too much these days but that is really the best word to describe this game and the world you play in during it, the variety and scale of the world is amazing.  I don't know how many times I had to stop myself and take in the scenery because it was so beautiful and grand.  From Software took everything that was good about Demon's Souls and made it better and then took all of that awesomeness and shaped it into something different enough from Demon's Souls to where it doesn't feel like a Demon's Souls sequel or Demon's Souls 1.5.  I will definitely be doing another playthrough again sometime and I can't wait to do it all over again.

[Quemaqua]

Every time I read about it I want it, but I never even finished Demons Souls. I want to... but I don't have time and likely never will. Which makes me a little sad.

[Cobra951]

I'm put off by the reported high difficulty.  I'm definitely curious about it.  Maybe someday they'll grace us with a demo.

[TheOtherBelmont]

I'm put off by the reported high difficulty.  I'm definitely curious about it.  Maybe someday they'll grace us with a demo.

I would recommend trying Demon's Souls first for several reasons:

1.  It is a little easier than Dark Souls.

2.  You can get it for $20 or less anywhere now because it made Greatest Hits and isn't a huge investment if you end up hating the game.  Maybe a rental is an option?

3. If you end up liking Demon's Souls and can get past the difficulty, you will already know how to play Dark Souls for the most part because the controls are about 90% the same in both games.

4. There is a huge wealth of information in wikis and walkthroughs for the game if you get stuck for any reason.

I tell anyone going into this game to not get put off by the high difficulty at first and just accept the fact that you are going to die a lot during the first several hours of the game but if you can get over that initial hump, the game is a pretty smooth ride the rest of the way in difficulty with the exception of a few bosses.

[Xessive]

I'm put off by the reported high difficulty.  I'm definitely curious about it.  Maybe someday they'll grace us with a demo.

Same here. People say "difficult" but I hear "frustrating."

I'd love to try it out for myself just to see what all the fuss is about.

[Quemaqua]

Actually, this one sounds a bit less frustrating than the first game. It's got checkpoints!

[TheOtherBelmont]

Actually, this one sounds a bit less frustrating than the first game. It's got checkpoints!

Yeah, but when you use them, all the enemies (with the exception of a few enemy types) you just killed will respawn, so that has to be kept in mind when using them.  Some aspects of Dark Souls' open world make the game harder and sometimes easier than Demon's Souls.  When you are progressing forward through an area the fact that the enemies respawn is not a frustration right away, but if you have to double back for any reason and try to make your way somewhere else you have to go through all of the enemies again, which isn't so bad if you are leveled properly for the area you are in and aren't trying to rush to where you came from, but if you are underleveled or low on some kind of status healing item this can be a pain in the ass.

[Quemaqua]

But even if that sometimes poses difficulties, it strikes me as being at least somewhat less frustrating. I love difficult games, but I don't like frustrating ones. There really is a difference. Even a gratuitously difficult game can be made less frustrating with good design. Demon's Souls was mostly just difficult, though it did have some pretty frustrating moments from time to time. The Dark Souls mechanics sound plenty hard, but maybe a bit less frustrating.

Though obviously that perception is just from reading, not from playing.

[Cobra951]

Isn't Demon's Souls a PS3-only game?  That puts it out of my reach.

. . . powerful Pyromancy or life-saving Miracles will usually be limited to just a few uses. Magic is as relevant to the game as ever, but it's no longer a cheap-and-easy, rechargeable long-range option. Sooner or later, especially in the boss battles, you're going to have to wade on in there with an axe and risk your hide up close.

This is one of many reasons that Dark Souls is considerably harder than Demon's Souls. (For context, I played through Demon's Souls about four times, and nothing in that game gave me the same trouble – and the same rush – as some of Dark Souls' crueler moments.) It appears to be FROM's mission to send you into harrowing spirals of despondency and self-pity at every opportunity. Levels and enemies alike are designed to be especially lethal. Like its predecessor, the game starts off borderline impossible and becomes more manageable the longer you play as you get together some half-decent equipment and build up your stats, but Dark Souls discourages grinding.

Dark Souls Review

Sounds excruciatingly brutal.  I don't know if I could get into that or not.  Yet I'm now even more curious, like that fabled cat that ends up dead.

[idolminds]

I suppose you can think of it like Shiren the Wanderer. You dont get through that game by grinding either, but by becoming a better player and learning how to defeat each enemy. I always got the impression that the enemies in DS are just hard, not impossible or cheaply unfair.

Not really into the respawning enemies idea for Dark Souls, though. Sucks they added that.

[Quemaqua]

God I want it. I have to stop visiting this thread.

[MysterD]

Petition going on for Dark Souls PC port, which has 13,000+ signatures so far within 10 hours.

GameBanshee and RockPaperShotgun are all over this already.

[Pugnate]

Signatures are free. PC gamers will do those.

[Quemaqua]

So I got this thanks to Dustin and a trade, and I am hooked. It's so good.

Firstly: the game is easier than Demon's Souls, at least so far; or it's less frustrating, at least. While you do sometimes have to plow through respawned enemies, the open world aspect and the shortcuts really make it a lot less irritating than trying to go through an entire fucking level of stuff when you're trying to get back to the boss that killed you. And that's very good, because the bosses will kill you. Lots. And lots.

I guess I'm three bosses down? Four? I forget. I think four if you count the easy boss in the starting area. Been at it 10 hours, am up to level 24. Started playing while the meet was still going and have been playing for about 3-ish hours at home to distract myself from the fact that everyone's gone home and we have to get back to real life at some point soon.

This game is definitely hard, and I've had a couple of niggly things with the controls that frustrated me at a couple points, but whatever it is I was doing that was causing the issue seems mostly to have resolved itself. That, or Pyro's PS3 controller is a little weird.

Not really sure what else to say since half the fun of the game is being surprised when it decides to throw something new and awful at you, and trying to guess at what that will be when you read the messages other players leave. Sometimes it all makes perfect sense, other times you scratch your head a bit and it only makes sense in hindsight. Still a fun aspect of the game.

Presentation seems to me slightly behind what I remember from Demon's Souls, but I guess that's just because it looks about the same and technology keeps getting better. It still looks good, and the design elements are impeccable. Sound is fantastic, and the thing has a wondrous OST. The open world aspect doesn't seem like a huge deal at first but really ends up being a huge improvement to the design of the previous game, and revamped inventory stuff is also a boon.

I may have enjoyed the hell out of Skyrim for many reasons, and it was a great ride in terms of just being able to see, explore, and do, but this game is raw, unadulterated exhilaration; in exploration, in victory, and in defeat. Heart-pounding stuff, reminds you that you're alive and not just a plastic extension of the controller. The term I'm looking for is impact; when you enter a new area, or when something looks ominous, that excitement and fear is amplified so much. You sweat, your controller squeaks under your clenched fingers. And the sense of security comes only gradually, with time, familiarity, and stat progress. When I crept around the dark passages of the upper bits at the Undead Parish, and when I first came to the New Lando Ruins in all their bleak, ghostly (and poorly-lit) glory, I was just waiting for horrible things to happen. And whether they did at that moment or not doesn't matter, because in this game you just come to expect it. I've let my guard down slightly while walking past a few sunlit buttresses, taking in a grand sight and feeling peaceful, but it didn't take much for a sudden glimpse of something, or a sound, or the turn of a corner to get me right back into oh shit mode.

The sense of victory here is palpable too, just like it was in its predecessor. You just can't imagine how much more satisfying victory is when you truly have to earn it, and the sigh of relief you allow yourself when you finally get to that long sought-after bonfire will be deep, meaningful, and satisfying.

Pick this up. Found it for $25 used and worth so much more. Think it's only $40 new. Try it out if you can. Oh, and the guide I found for $17 at Gamestop... real nice hardbound guide from Future Press. I was impressed with it, and in this game it's nice to have around just for those occasional moments when you're truly afraid you're about to totally fuck yourself. I haven't been using it unless I get stuck or have a stat/item-related question (proof positive: I just lost 10,000 souls to the Capra Demon tonight), but nice for those moments of uncertainty where you really have to make a choice on your build, etc.

Yeah... so try it if you can.

Also, despite the game being more on the bleak side, there's plenty to laugh about:

[TheOtherBelmont]

Hahaha, I hadn't seen that first picture!  That is great!  PRAISE THE SUN!

[Quemaqua]

WOO!

Random images because I'm taking a break and putting off walking the dog:

[Xessive]

I want to like this game! I want to enjoy it! I have it but I keep dying and restarting from so far back that I usually end up leaving it for another day.

[Cobra951]

I want to like this game! I want to enjoy it! I have it but I keep dying and restarting from so far back that I usually end up leaving it for another day.

I think this picture tells it all.  I just can't get into games with this design philosophy anymore.  At least make the first thing after the checkpoint be the hardest (instead of the last).  That way it won't be frustrating and a big waste of time.

[Quemaqua]

There aren't any games with this design philosophy anymore, really. It's all hand-holding and cutscenes, which is probably why I rarely play games anymore. And X, if you're having that much trouble, you just don't have the patience for it. This game doesn't require much other than patience. If you die and get flustered it will laugh and punish you, but if you keep your cool and work methodically, most of the damage is mitigated.

I don't find the game frustrating at all unless I just can't figure out how to do something, which has only happened once or twice, and it rewards exploration and experimentation. And you never have to restart from very far away. It's much less distance and more figuring out routes that mean you don't have to fight quite so many guys. Plus you unlock shortcuts all over the place when you start to make progress, and bosses/minibosses/big enemies don't respawn. It doesn't mean it's a cakewalk, but the game isn't really *that* hard, it just refuses to let you get cocky or impatient (or unobservant). Basic enemies can still fuck you over if you aren't paying attention, even ones that you can one-shot. But you can still get stronger and one-shot those guys, you just don't want to get so cocky that you run into a mass of them and act like a hero.

The game is fair, you just have to stay cool and use your head. I've seen tons of videos of people walking straight into instant death with the above dragon, but you don't have to. I didn't on my first time through even though I didn't really know it was coming. If you pay some attention to the world you're given a pretty giant hint that some shit is about to go down. You choose to ignore it, you pay for it, but it's not the game's fault. And that's not to say that you're never surprised, but those surprises should give you a thrill, not just "oh man, now I have to play for an extra ten minutes".

Dustin and I were talking about his friend during the meet, how he broke a bunch of Skyrim stuff by not respecting the design, running ahead and grabbing items before the NPC for the quest had gotten anywhere near them, etc. We expect our games to be bigger than ever now but also never to break, even though half the time it's our own fault for not respecting the design. Same thing here, just a different spin. The game isn't broken or "too hard", you just can't play it like other games. I find that refreshing. I get really tired of being spoon-fed everything and having every single option be viable. Why do you have to give everyone the choice to do anything? Here you can choose your method of attack, fast or slow, one-handed or two-handed weapons, block or evade, light armor or heavy, lots of equipment or lots of speed, magic or miracles or pyromancy... there are tons of equipment options and build options in terms of how you spend your souls, but you still have to play smart. You still have to be mindful of what the game really is. Skyrim? You can do anything at any time, and you never have to worry because you're given so many options that if one fails, there's another sitting in your inventory. The exploration and storytelling and immersion are great, but the thrill for me is very much gone since the sense of danger even at higher difficulty has evaporated entirely. I definitely got my money's worth and I love the game, but Dark Souls has already established itself to me as overall a much better and more satisfying game.

[K-man]

We no longer "beat" games, we "finish" them.

This is definitely a game(series) to be beaten.  It's not for everyone.  You're expected to find your own way and your own technique.  Que is right, there is too much hand holding in games nowadays.  It's like the developers can't trust the end user to be smart enough to figure out how to play the game.  Part of it is that they've come to replace the instruction manual, but it eliminates the possibility of finding out anything on your own.

[Quemaqua]

Yeah. And I'm not saying every game has to be ridiculously hard, just that I wish more games actually challenged us to do something. Most have eliminated failure completely or made it so inconsequential as to be irrelevant. And while failure is very present here, it's not just there you make you angry, it's to amp you up. That's what I miss. Games so rarely excite me these days, rarely make my heart pound in anticipation of what's around the corner.

EDIT -

So made it to Blighttown. Then died in Blighttown. Then died again. And again. And again. I believe the final total was 7 times, the breakdown as follows: once being invaded by an asshole because I was human, once killed by barbarian, three times into the abyss (pushed by barbarians), once by ghoul/toxic dart combo, and once after getting to the next bonfire which, immediately after being kindled, went dead as I was invaded by a jerk with a giant sword. Being human is apparently almost a guarantee of being forced into PvP, which is a tad annoying because I absolutely suck at it. I did almost kill the first guy, but I never managed to beat anyone in Demon's Souls either.

I'm now level 30 and like... 17 hours in maybe? Somewhere in there. Had some epic stuff happen today, and found an awesome ring in the Depths which has made life at least slightly easier. Have gotten the hang of backstabbing finally, which I was more or less forced to do to pass some stuff. Now I feel like I've got a much better handle on the combat.

Psyched!

EDIT x2 -



This is sort of the opening area after the tutorial area. There are actually three bonfires around, though you can only see one here since the others are inside buildings, so you're never really very far from one. Once you learn the layouts things aren't so bad.

EDIT x3 - Okay, I've definitely hit my first angry spot. RAGE. Got really far then this one guy came out of nowhere while I was fighting another in super-tight quarters where I can't use my speed to my advantage. Then another group I've beaten individually any number of times now manage to gang on me, and I still don't know why. Three ghouls and two fire dogs. I should have been drawing them individually but they just kept aggroing from really far away. Thankfully I didn't lose more than a couple thousand souls.

EDIT x4 - New strategy! Run really fast and fall strategically! I got lucky on my first try and made it to the bottom. Fell into several very bad situations but managed to get out of them, and just like every other challenge I've overcome, the feeling of accomplishment at the end was just awesome. Kicked some serious ass, found a bonfire, and now I've got a crapload of new area to explore. Very glad I stocked up on anti-poison/toxicity moss at the top.

[Xessive]

Well, I'm not looking for hand-holding or a cutscene driven experience. Just a good ol' fashioned quicksave so I don't have to repeat so damn much. The longevity of this game is derived from how many times I have to replay it just to get through 1 segment between checkpoints; at least that's how it's coming off to me right now.

I'm gonna keep trying but I think I may have to use a guide/walkthrough just to avoid cheap insta-death moments.

[Cobra951]

Well, I'm not looking for hand-holding or a cutscene driven experience. Just a good ol' fashioned quicksave so I don't have to repeat so damn much. The longevity of this game is derived from how many times I have to replay it just to get through 1 segment between checkpoints; at least that's how it's coming off to me right now.

. . .

That's what I was thinking.  Thanks.  And that is what I feared.  No, thanks.

[Quemaqua]

Uh, but that's completely wrong.

[Xessive]

That's what I was thinking.  Thanks.  And that is what I feared.  No, thanks.

I'm sure the game does have a fair length and a good amount of content, but if they say it's (on average) a 60-hour game I don't wanna spend 40 of those hours doing repeats. As it stands I have 3 hours logged into the game, all in the prologue. Replay value should be determined by different terms.

When I feel like replays and repeating segments I play Super Meat Boy. Just saying.

[Quemaqua]

Wait. What do you mean by prologue? The Asylum? I really hope not, because that should take you like... a half hour at most. I don't see how that would even be possible.

Anyway, I get that the game isn't for everyone, but your assessment is pretty bogus. This isn't a game about replaying the same sections over and over. Repetition and difficulty are not at all the same thing. I've had to replay several sections until I learned how to deal with enemies or beat a boss, but of the 26 hours I've played now, 75% or better has been just playing, not repeating, and most of the repetition was in small doses around concentrated areas, usually near a bonfire so that getting back to it didn't involve anything too terrible.

[TheOtherBelmont]

Xessive, your statement about a 60 hour game total with 40 hours of repeats is way off.  I logged around 80 hours on my first playthrough and very little of that was from repeating areas due to dying.  The checkpoints in this game actually make it less of an issue than it was in Demon's Souls.  There were only a couple of frustrating sections where the distance between bonfires was larger than normal, but I managed to get through them only dying 2-3 times.  The majority of my deaths were from bosses and the game is actually very generous about where it puts the bonfires in relation to the boss locations.

[Xessive]

I don't know how long the game is, as I've stated I'm only in the very beginning. I'm just saying that if a game is advertised as a 60-hour game it would be misleading if 40 of those hours were annoying repeats.

The part I'm on is basically the first giant demon thing. I start at the bonfire, outside the big sealed door, I take the stairs to the right, fight my way through a bunch of weird zombie dudes, easy stuff, reach the top and there's a "white light" that I have to enter. I go inside the game loads into the interior of that building, I'm on a balcony and there's a giant demon dude downstairs. He destroys the balcony and I die instantly upon hitting the ground. That's happened every time. I have tried avoiding the "white light" and going past it but the area is locked and I need a key to move on.

Basically it took me about half an hour to reach that point but I've spent nearly 2-3 hours replaying that same 10 minute segment. Get to the "boss," die, rinse and repeat. Roughly 1/3 of my game time is genuine and the rest is repeating due to inevitable failure. Of course the more frustrated I get the greater the chance of screwing up on the way. I don't get why the game doesn't autosave or at least give me a save right before the instant-death/high-threat situation. It's frustrating that I have to fiddle and fidget my way right up to the big scene and then die (repeatedly) just to replay all of that again. I suppose for some the threat of having to repeat so much gives a thrill but for me it's just tedious.

The thing is, I want to enjoy this game. It looks great, I've heard great things, but from what I'm playing it's a very null experience. Why am I putting up with it? Because this is exactly what I was going through with Neverwinter Nights; the prologue was so damn long and boring that it shut me off. If it weren't for Pug pushing me on to persevere and at least experience the real meat of the game (chapters 1 & 2) I wouldn't have fallen in love with it! God, that game is awesome.

[Cobra951]

. . .

Basically it took me about half an hour to reach that point but I've spent nearly 2-3 hours replaying that same 10 minute segment. Get to the "boss," die, rinse and repeat. Roughly 1/3 of my game time is genuine and the rest is repeating due to inevitable failure. Of course the more frustrated I get the greater the chance of screwing up on the way. I don't get why the game doesn't autosave or at least give me a save right before the instant-death/high-threat situation. It's frustrating that I have to fiddle and fidget my way right up to the big scene and then die (repeatedly) just to replay all of that again. I suppose for some the threat of having to repeat so much gives a thrill but for me it's just tedious.

. . .

This is the perfect example of what I'm done with in gaming.  I'm finished with it.  I've done it, countless times through the decades, never enjoying it, but persevering, and eventually prevailing.  There is no need for it anymore.  Games aren't tiny bits of code on primitive systems anymore.  Play time doesn't have to depend on this punishing philosophy.  I will no longer accept it.

[Xessive]

Ok, I checked my save file time, it took me 23mins to reach that point.

Anyway, in the spirit of really giving this another shot I just decided to delete my save and start fresh.

Created a new character, went through the whole beginning again, made it up to the white light and entered. This time the Asylum Demon (as I now know what he's called) attacked the balcony but I didn't die! I hit the ground with some minor damage but no instant-death! Got up, ran around him, and eventually kicked his ass.

No idea what was going on with my previous save. Every time I enter the white light, I appear on the balcony, demon attacks and I die. This time I landed on the ground and it was fine! WTF?! All I had to do was start a fresh character? Was it a bug? I don't know. Frickin' bullshit is what it was. Point is it very nearly ruined the game for me.

Now that I'm past this ridiculousness I'm gonna give the game some serious time and really move forward with it.

[Cobra951]

Cool!  Let us know how it goes now.  The problem you had is a new concern, though.

[idolminds]

I don't think this is really a spoiler for that first boss but

(click to show/hide)

you are supposed to jump down and attack him first, before he can attack you on the balcony. One drop attack on him takes nearly half his life.

[Quemaqua]

Haha, wow. Maybe this isn't the game for you, X. Don't think you're dying from hitting the ground, you're dying from being smashed in the face by a giant boss. Apparently with your new character he just missed you with the actual swing so you made it to the ground okay. But honestly, what possessed you to just stand there over and over again? If you walk or jump off the ledge and attack while falling you'll do a ton of damage to the boss, and you don't take that much damage from a relatively short fall anyway, so even if you don't manage the falling attack you should at least get the fuck off the ledge instead of standing there waiting for him to kill you. And it should take you like... two minutes to get to the boss from the bonfire, not twenty. There's like 4 or 5 easy enemies. I don't know man, something is a bit off here.

[K-man]

I'm going to guess that unlike most games, the strategy guide is a most welcome addition here?  Reason I ask is that it appears gamestop has it on sale currently.

[Quemaqua]

I grabbed it (see above). It's actually a very nice guide, I'm glad I snagged it. But you don't really need it. There's a big online community and several wikis. I even just ran across a post where a bunch of people are going on a mass invasion spree of the forest to fight against farmers/campers, so clearly there's still a very active community here. But yeah, the guide is a nice buy at $17, but not a necessity given the abundance of general information on the web. But if you like having guides around, this is a pretty nice one.

[K-man]

All I know i that it was very handy having a guide sitting in front of me for what I played of Demons souls.

[Xessive]

Well, before as soon as the game comes in from the white light, the balcony just gets smashed in! There's no chance to do anything at all! I read a couple of guides and they all said I had to jump down on him, but there was no chance at all! I spawn, the balcony is instantly destroyed and I'm dead. This time when I appeared, it wasn't destroyed immediately! I stood there, I actually had time to look down at him and time my drop.

Weird. More importantly, I am able to progress!

Castlevania is usually thought of as a difficult game but I don't find it that difficult and I enjoy it a lot. In terms of difficulty, Dark Souls seems to be more about technicalities i.e. player position, angle of attack, timing etc. As opposed to Castlevania's more reflex-based combat. Certainly a lot more exploring to do in DS as well.

[Quemaqua]

He should give you about 3 or 4 seconds at least while he looks up at you before doing anything. So I can't say about that. He did for me the three times I did that (died once when I went down to fight him).

Yeah, this game is all about skill and knowledge of mechanics. Every weapon plays differently, and your movement rate and evasion speed will be totally different depending on the kinds of armor you've got on and how much equip weight you're dealing with. You've got parry/ripost mechanics, backstabbing, sneak attacks, criticals, throwing enemies off balance, knocking them from heights, and attacking them during attack animations. You've also got various defenses, some shields that may offer less overall defense but are better at parrying, and lots of resistances that will come in handy. And obviously that's not even talking magic (I use a little, but not much), or any special items (firebombs and gold pine resin can be your friend a lot in early game). It takes some time to get a rhythm down with any weapon too. But the game rewards persistence, and if you stick it out past where it drives you just slightly nuts you'll usually succeed and feel like a huge badass.

Hope the rest of the game treats you better than the opening. You'll have some choices from the start, so watch where you go! The game doesn't shield you from going places that are too tough. And make sure you never kill any NPCs. Don't stand around them if enemies are chasing you and don't set your controller down and accidentally kill them. They won't come back. Other than that you can pretty much just do whatever you want, try different things, see what happens.

EDIT -

Also worth noting how much a better weapon can help you. Great armor is great, but if it takes you twenty minutes to down an enemy, certain situations (like multiple enemies) will require a lot of careful execution. I've spent most of my game totally underpowered as I've been focusing almost entirely on mobility. High dex, vit, and end, but not too much else. I just upped my strength enough to use a powerful sword I got and holy shit. All the difference in the world. So now I'm still highly mobile because of light armor, but also finally doing some good damage output. Backstabbing went from a solid hit to an instant kill on a lot of guys.

[idolminds]

From the Dark Souls Facebook page:

An announcement is coming......

We have something in-store for our DARK SOULS Fans ! Make sure to check out the following page (Link below), share, like and tell everyone.

https://www.facebook.com/darksouls/app_352678381442367

So "like" the page and I guess when enough people do it the announcement will be revealed. Will this be the fabled PC version? Some sort of DLC? Theres been rumor of them working on iOS as well...