Author Topic: Life  (Read 33122 times)

Offline Ghandi

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Life
« on: Tuesday, November 28, 2006, 10:31:29 PM »
Alright- this was a very difficult topic to find a name for, and I still do not know whether or not this was a accurate title. Despite this, I want to distinguish the point of this topic- to have a discussion about life, apart from religion or other aphorisms that may have garnered certain predispositions about life in general. I realize that these religions may have an underlying effect on the responses of our posts, but we should refrain from mentioning them, (despite the fact that we may already realize what they are ) and instead focus on the point of the post- that is, to try and relate our beliefs or convictions in such a way that separates us from any sort of discrimination towards a certain faction and instead directs our responses towards ourselves. All to often we are associated with a certain group about our beliefs towards life and religion, and the point of this post is to simply disintegrate these groupings and instead focus on ourselves and our own beliefs.
Let me elaborate- I have very specific views about life in general and why are are on the earth. I believe that everyone, despite their religion, has separate views about their purpose of being here. These views may be focused based on religion, but undoubtedly they are all different, as everyone is different and has different views about certain things. As such, I simply want to understand everyone's views on life and why we are here and what our purpose is, apart from some simple religious explanation for our beliefs.
I myself have had my different explanations for why I am on the earth, but let me explain my latest reasoning for my being. I believe that we are all of the same being- that is, God. While we may not all be the same *individual*, we are all ultimately the same person. We all make separate decisions, but our ultimate goal is for God (that is, us) to better understand himself. Because we are all God, we are all individually different aspects of him, and we ultimately relate these aspects through our actions. As such, we explain his own characteristics through our lives, and help him to understand himself.
Whether or not this is factual is irrelevant; we ultimately will never know. I have had many explanations for life, but I simply want to know everyone else's. I am intrigued by the reasoning for life and our explanation for it.

And yeah, I put this in the serious topics for a reason  ;)

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Life
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday, November 28, 2006, 11:39:20 PM »
Damn, that means I can't make petty jokes in order to avoid saying something like I usually do.  Idol will likely join me in this frustration.

At this point in my life, I believe life to be about experience.  Pain, joy, and everything in between, I think what ultimately makes us what we are is the experience of living.  We can either become good or bad people because of that, or we can become combinations of good and bad things.  Ultimately, I believe there is more to our existence than we see with our eyes, and I believe there are multifaceted mechanics of spiritual existence that work like machinery to dictate many of the forces around us.  I think of it as science, in that it can be followed like a mathematical process, but something far beyond what we've managed to dissect about our lives in the thousands of years we've been around and learning on the planet Earth.

Eventually, I think we'll be rewarded for the good and just causes we champion, and I think we'll be punished for being hateful.  That doesn't mean I believe every man can find his own way and come out on top, for I most certainly do not believe that all paths lead to God, but it means that there are precepts by which we can live life and be better people who do more to help than harm those around them, including the Earth itself and the many other lifeforms we share it with.

I believe that all political systems have been and shall forever be flawed because they require people in charge who are not corrupt, and with time, societies and cultures *all* corrupt and eventually fall prey to the baser problems that humanity blinds itself to.  Societies will always eventually strive to collectively pull blinders over their eyes in regards to the things they do which may stray from the path of what is good and right, generally because people find strength in numbers and feel safe when they collectively subscribe to the same corruptions.

There will never be world peace because it's an impossibility in terms of everyone joining up under the same banner.  Small groups of people will always develop beliefs and practices which will clash with other small groups of people, and having only one single huge group will simply lead to the eventual corruption of its leadership, hence its eventual destruction.  The best we can do is focus on the things we can that are good and beautiful -- the life experiences I spoke of at the beginning.  Pain, joy, love, hate -- they're all universal.  If we focus on art, on expressions of these things, and if we foster a love for the simple differences in human viewpoints (*essential* differences that should be kept culturally separate, not to congeal into a single entity), then we can at least hope to coexist and remember that each of us, in his own way, is trying his best to be human.

I believe that I am a hateful person with little tolerance for others, especially because I consider my own self-developed culture to be vastly superior to that of most others I meet.  While ideologically I feel very differently on the whole, on a personal, day-to-day basis, I see people as little more than disease.  I strive to avoid them.  I have many friends and people whom I respect that I interact with regularly, but I see the world as a hive of filth that can go nowhere but down because people refuse to acknowledge things that are worth acknowledging, instead choosing to spend all of their time in admiration of things without conscience, without craft, and without consequence.  Ironically, this has lead me to spend 80% of my time engaging in fantasies of various natures, and Fiction in its various forms has more or less become the driving force in my life.  It's the only place I feel like I can escape my criticisms of others, of myself, and the feeling that I am completely unable to change any of it.  Thus in my love of experience, the act of emotional learning, I often shut myself out to that which can actually teach me.

I believe that love is the best thing you can share with another person, but it's also the most difficult thing to achieve.  Real love is not an impossibility, but it requires a foundation of great respect and great sacrifice, and it isn't something to be entered into lightly.  There, the most carnal and base rewards of human desire can be fulfilled while being tempered with a patient understanding that transform them from their basic states into complex emotional experiences that enrich both people involved.  Sex should be frequent.  Sex is love's church.  Sex is holy and should not be bastardized or cheapened for the fulfillment of self, and it is heightened when enjoyed as something to fulfill someone else, like most things in life.  Love, either the emotional attachment of a marriage, that of one's children, or that of one's fellow man, is a most difficult thing to attain, but those that strive for it are rewarded.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline idolminds

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Re: Life
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday, November 29, 2006, 01:13:15 AM »
We are a cosmic accident. A fluke. What we get out of life is our own doing, and in the end its simply the experience thats worth anything because once its done, its done.

I feel bad about posting such a short response to such a deep question, esp after you guys practically wrote books for posts :P

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Life
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday, November 29, 2006, 01:51:35 PM »
Ghandi, you emphasized leaving religion out of the picture, yet your post makes itself difficult to address without involving religion.  God, whether a separate entity, or our collective selves and surroundings, requires belief through faith.  You must believe in something just because you do, not because of conviction based on facts in evidence.  But I think you meant to exclude organized religion only, dogmas imposed by powerful organizations.  That's what I'll be assuming.

My personal philosophy tends toward agnosticism.  What's beyond my experience and understanding is unknown, and will forever remain unknown to me.  That should be painfully obvious, yet I constantly get strong dissenting views.  I think it's too difficult for most people to accept that they are cosmically insignificant, and can't see the big picture any more than an ant can see our solar system.

At this point in my life, I am lost.  My approach to living has failed me.  The "enlightened" family members will point to my lack of faith, the devil, or similar, confidently.  So, in effect, they are useless to me as guides out of the darkness.  I don't want to alienate them, so I try not to put up any kind of a fight against myopic, dogmatic answers.  The frustration can get intolerable.  I am running out of reasons to live, yet I'm too afraid of dying to precipitate it.  Somehow, I cling to hope.  This coming year will bring fundamental changes out of necessity.  I hope to have something better to say, about my approach to life, on the other side of what awaits.

Offline Ace_O_Spades

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Re: Life
« Reply #4 on: Thursday, November 30, 2006, 11:06:36 PM »
My views on life are twisted, and I've never fully shared them with anyone really before now.

I believe we are all here to suffer... Human existence is by and large characterized by suffering - genocide, war, racism, poverty... doing shit we hate in order to continue living in a world filled with hate with constant hatred about our position in life in trying to "better" ourselves. Death serves as the doleful reminder that our time on this chunk of rock hurtling through space is painfully limited, we will be nothing more than the blink of an eye, and nothing we do will be remembered 100 million years from now.

We are here to suffer so we can realize that we are all in a brutal rat race. We are all following draconian, arbitrary social rules like they were the word of God. Do this, don't do that, come here at this time, go there at that time.

Some people suffer less than others, but those in power suffer from different afflictions... nevertheless they suffer... then we die.

Even if you find love, they'll die eventually, then you suffer, or they suffer when you die, everyone suffers.

Life sucks, the end.

What makes a good life:

Break the fucking mold every now and then... Doing unexpected, completely random things that nobody could be prepared for is the only unique and special things that we as humans can accomplish. He who spends his life in the tireless pursuit of money and material objects will be doomed to a life of servitude.

I'm by no means the great follower of this paradigm... and I'm suffering... I'm suffering through a degree at university that makes me do shit I hate so I can get a job... the light at the end of the tunnel. But is it really the end of the tunnel? Or do I just enter a new tunnel after I exit this one?

Fuck life, it makes you appreciate the ancient Stoics who held suicide as the highest form of individual expression. I'm not killing myself, don't worry... I'd like to try to find my way first. If not, there's always the way of Hunter S. Thompson down the road if life becomes too shitty to bear.
The CONtrast
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Offline Pugnate

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Re: Life
« Reply #5 on: Friday, December 01, 2006, 02:14:39 AM »
Has anyone ever heard Satan's side of the story? :P

Offline idolminds

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Re: Life
« Reply #6 on: Friday, December 01, 2006, 10:21:24 AM »
You know the saying: "The greatest trick Satan ever played on man was to convince him that he didn't exist."

I think it would be a great book/movie if you changed it to "The greatest trick Satan ever played on man was to convince him that he was God." as in, we all have it wrong and are worshiping the wrong deity.

But that doesn't really belong in this topic...heh.

Offline Xessive

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Re: Life
« Reply #7 on: Friday, December 01, 2006, 11:05:36 AM »
No one's mentioned "Dark Lord Xenu" that's a relief :P

I believe that we're all linked, regardless of creed. We're all on the same boat, and our duty is to stop the jackasses who are constantly poking holes in it. Whatever belief this metaphor satisfies fits. Whether it's about spirituality and Heaven vs Hell, or the boat is Earth and the jackasses are polluters. In the end we're stuck together for a certain limited amount of time, so we ought to make the most of it.

I think life is the ultimate game of "Chinese Whispers" (a.k.a. "Broken Telephone"). Some of us are going by what we heard (or what we believe we heard) from the ones before us, some are working our own way out, and others are making up stuff (probably for their own amusement :P). When the end comes we'll hear what the final iteration of the message, and what the original message was, and we'll all know for ourselves where we were in it all. It's a fun game when you have enough people :D

EDIT:
I find it profoundly ironic that this topic was started by "Ghandi" ;D
« Last Edit: Friday, December 01, 2006, 11:30:25 AM by Xessive »

Offline Raisa

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Re: Life
« Reply #8 on: Saturday, December 02, 2006, 05:18:55 AM »
But I definitely think and know that we are part of HIM.  But we are NOT HIM.  It's like a sunray isn't the sun but it's part of it. It's like wetness being a fundamental part of water but it's not exactly water in itself. You can't separate wetness and water, yet you can't say they're exactly the same thing.

The big bang.. i've always thought as absurd..  How can the human body possibly come from a big bang?  The organized intricate systems for circulation, digestion, etc.. how can that all come from a big bang?  Then again, the word "theory" should clinch the deal.

My view on life is sacred to me and which i don't normally speak about to most people, whether i've known them for a long time or not, whether they're close to me or not.

All i can say is, i've more and more observed how private I am.  The closer something is to my heart and to divulging some information on what makes me, me, the more reclusive i become.


Taken.

Offline idolminds

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Re: Life
« Reply #9 on: Saturday, December 02, 2006, 11:00:02 PM »
The big bang.. i've always thought as absurd..  How can the human body possibly come from a big bang?  The organized intricate systems for circulation, digestion, etc.. how can that all come from a big bang?  Then again, the word "theory" should clinch the deal.
I....wont get into this here. Just know I had to bang my head on the desk just now.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Life
« Reply #10 on: Sunday, December 03, 2006, 12:50:14 AM »
I could honestly care less whether or not anyone believes in a divine creation of any kind, but during a period of my younger life when I was full of doubt about many things I spent a great deal of time in study about this stuff and came to the conclusion that nobody has a fucking clue what they're talking about.  My father was something of a crossover guy... he believed in a divine creation, but by way of the more modern scientific theories.  A "God sneezed" sort of big bang theory, you might say.  He also believed in an old earth as opposed to a young one.  So don't think I flew in the face of that lightly, especially considering that I have never in my life respected anyone living as much as I respected my father, and this is a man who was not only an amateur paleontologist himself (and I accompanied him many times to museums, private libraries, and even actual digs), and he also wrote a book on the life of Charles Sternberg and his family (a paleontologist, for those of you who don't know).  I honestly believe that people simply study what's thrown in front of their noses and never bother to actually consider the flaws of most of the current theories.  If you actually look, you'll find there are *many*.  My father was aware of some of them, and we talked many times about dating methods, his beliefs about evolution and what I perceived to be flaws in the theory, about the many things presented as scientific fact that are, in actuality, anachronisms still taught despite having been officially classified as hoaxes or inaccurate science.  I could care less what your religious beliefs are or whether or not you choose to believe there's a God or no God or we're all flopping around with no purpose at all.  It makes no difference to me whatsoever.  The only thing that bothers me is that the current "scientific" creation theories lack far too much to be considered scientifically acceptable on any level whatsoever, yet few people bother to study them in enough detail to actually know this.  All I can say is: study, and do it from all angles.  Don't blindly believe what *anybody* tells you, one side or the other or the other, because in this life you're not likely to meet with anything but a big fucking pile of lies.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline idolminds

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Re: Life
« Reply #11 on: Sunday, December 03, 2006, 01:05:13 AM »
I'm more annoyed with dismissing something scientific labeled "theory" as if it meant "I just made this shit up."

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Life
« Reply #12 on: Sunday, December 03, 2006, 01:13:45 AM »
There are certainly many theories that cannot be 100% proven but have enough logical, proven science behind them that we can make a fair guess as to what the reality might actually be.  I don't think the theories we're discussing now fall into that legitimate category.  But no, I don't think anyone should ever dismiss something for too simple a reason.  Careful consideration is the only thing that ever leads to growth.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline Raisa

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Re: Life
« Reply #13 on: Sunday, December 03, 2006, 07:50:08 AM »
well.. the person who came up with the theory didn't even believe in it.
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Offline idolminds

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Re: Life
« Reply #14 on: Sunday, December 03, 2006, 09:32:43 AM »
Which theory are we talking about? Big Bang or evolution? Because if its evolution, the whole "he didn't believe in it" thing is a myth. Even if it was true, it doesn't change anything. If the theory is wrong they will either get rid of it or change it, and evolution has been tested for over 100 years now.

Ok, sorry. I really shouldn't get into this and make the thread off topic. When it comes to the evolution vs creation stuff...I just don't understand it. Starting as a simpler organism and through time evolving into something else doesn't make sense to people, yet some entity just goes *poof* and here we all are does? Boggles my mind. For me I need logic and evidence, and evolution has that. It doesn't have all the answers, it doesn't even attempt to explain where the first organism came from (thats a different area of study). I mean, who knows? Maybe God made the first single cell organism and just let the thing go to see what sort of other things would come from it? Kind of like a bowl of seamonkeys, except his seamonkeys turned into dinosaurs and shit. Much more entertaining.

Just had to toss this in here because it makes me laugh.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Life
« Reply #15 on: Sunday, December 03, 2006, 10:32:53 AM »
See, *that* is an example of utter ridiculousness.  Not only is that theory silly, it's silly because all it's attempting to do is argue semantics over and issue that isn't a mystery to anybody anymore.  While we may not fully understand the force, I see no reason to attempt to argue against what that force actually is, because it doesn't really affect the thing in any way whatsoever.  You could say that magical invisible monkeys were, in fact, pulling everything that "falls" down to the ground, unbeknownst to us, and that wouldn't affect the way things fall one iota.  If you believe in God, then God makes gravity happen.  Where's the issue?  That's idiotic.

I'd post more about this, as I do believe in the adaptation of lifeforms... learned biology and such... just not on the grand scale of evolution where I believe there is far, far too little proof to actually come up with what's been come up with... but yes, I suppose this is thread derailment.  Alas, I'm sure it's going to continue when Cobra comes in here as I know he has strong feelings on the issue, heh.  Oh well.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline idolminds

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Re: Life
« Reply #16 on: Sunday, December 03, 2006, 11:08:17 AM »
The Onion is a joke news site, you know. That was a parody article based on the intelligent design vs evolution debate that went on in Kansas.

Offline Xessive

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Re: Life
« Reply #17 on: Sunday, December 03, 2006, 11:47:30 AM »
I believe in evolution, but as far as I'm concerned it's just "advanced chronic genetic adaptation." I don't believe that humans evolved from apes. Religiously it doesn't fit obviously, but from a scientific perspective it just barely passes as a plausible theory (emphasis on theory). It hasn't been proven, otherwise it would be a certified fact or law.

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Life
« Reply #18 on: Sunday, December 03, 2006, 12:56:13 PM »
The Onion is a joke news site, you know. That was a parody article based on the intelligent design vs evolution debate that went on in Kansas.

It has fooled the Chinese a few times.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Life
« Reply #19 on: Sunday, December 03, 2006, 02:24:02 PM »
Quote
Scientists from the Evangelical Center For Faith-Based Reasoning
 
:)

Even if that had been posted on a serious site, that right there should have brought a smile to your face, and made you take the rest of the article lightly (even if there really is such a place, or maybe especially if there is).

Evolution is science.  It could be flawed science, or flat-out-wrong science.  But science it is.  Creationism is not. This is not a statement based on belief, but fact.  Anyone who can't tell the defference does not understand the scientific method.  That's all I have to say on the subject.

How can we come from a big bang?  I don't know.  (See my previous post.)  But in a world full of complementing opposites, I can easily conceive of life as the yin to entropy's yang.  Let the flaming begin . . .

Offline Ace_O_Spades

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Re: Life
« Reply #20 on: Sunday, December 03, 2006, 03:48:16 PM »
This is not a thread for flaming

These are beliefs, and therefore above argument or reproach. My beliefs may be entirely wrong-headed, but my beliefs they are.

The only thing I have to say is this:

Once your report your beliefs AS fact, you'd better be prepared to show some evidence supporting your claim. Otherwise you're just spouting pseudoscience masquerading as true scientific discourse.

Hold your beliefs, but don't force them on others, or pretend that your beliefs are superior to others. In the land of faith, all are created equal.

Too bad not everyone can separate faith from fact.

This is a general statement, the YOU does not correspond to anyone in this thread.
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Offline Cobra951

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Re: Life
« Reply #21 on: Sunday, December 03, 2006, 04:31:42 PM »
Oh, don't give me that disclaimer.  I don't mind arguments, or even flames.  There's a reason this is called the serious-topics board.  But if you're going to take square aim at my comments, don't muddy them with a meek excuse at the end.

If you read my last post, you'll see that I have no belief attached to anything.  I'm conceding the possibility that the only surviving scientific theory about our origin may be flawed or even completely wrong.  My only absolute point is that any theory based on dogma, such as creationism, is not science, just like a cheetah is not a vegetable and the ocean is not made of concrete.  Simple, straightforward observation of facts which only people ignorant of basic concepts can confuse for competing random belief systems.  Philosophy needs to be taught in philosophy or theology class, not science class.  Kids are confused enough already to screw up their minds further with this zealot-driven political bullshit.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Life
« Reply #22 on: Sunday, December 03, 2006, 05:06:15 PM »
Except that kids are already screwed up by the non-zealot driven political bullshit.  Don't take aim at one camp of idiots and ignore the rest.  Crude as this may be -- we're fucked because we're fucked, not because one particular individual or group did the fucking.  The fact of the matter is that there is just as much credible scientific evidence to support what the average Christian believes as there is to support what the theory of evolution purports.  You can spew "facts" all day and night and the reality doesn't change.  Again, I could give a flying monkey shit what anybody believes.  As far as my religious background goes, I'm pretty far from things and have been for some time.  But I do take issue with people throwing arguments against one group that could just as easily be thrown against their own.  It takes just as much faith to believe in obviously flawed scientific guesswork as it does to believe in other theories that present only a modicum of proven fact and expect the rest to come from faith.  You may argue that creationism is more dogma and less science, but I propose that it's exactly as much science and exactly as much accepting of bullshit as the other popular theories.  There is plenty of scientific evidence to support creationism and a young earth, and while there are plenty of dunderheaded morons mucking it up for legitimate Christians with scientific aims, I suspect they are only slightly greater in number than the morons mucking it up for those who support Darwinism.

We're fucked because we're fucked, and that's something I pretty firmly believe these days.  I see a bunch of idiots doing everything wrong for their own causes and I can see it coming to nothing but a horrible end.  I choose to believe in something that was passed on to me by the one person I have respected most in my time on earth, and I hope it will make me a better person in the end and allow me to subscribe to more meaning in my life than, "I landed here, where do I breed?"

And don't write off Kams (Ace), Cobra, I think he meant what he said and I think some of us probably agree with that.  I don't want to flame anybody.  I like you guys and I don't care if we don't always see eye to eye.  Idol and I are pretty different in this area, but that doesn't mean I don't think he's cool as hell and don't want him to come visit us soon.  Flaming isn't going to help anything and I'd much rather err on the side of peace than that of war in this case.  We aren't going to be changing anyone's mind here, more than likely, but at least we can spout off about our own viewpoints for a while.  I respect all you people and think you're all easily intelligent enough to believe whatever the hell you want, even if I don't think it's right.  I don't want to flame for that.  I'd rather be encouraging in pointing out that even where we're different, you're still all people I respect, and that's a damn sight more than I can say about a lot of folks.

And idol... heh.  I didn't realize that was the Onion.  The sad fact is it doesn't read too far from some of the bullshit I've seen, and I didn't look at where it came from.  While I certainly don't propose that it's an accurate parody of intelligent design vs. luck, I've seen things equally stupid from some of the less intelligent people at work for the cause.  What's necessary in the study of this stuff is to find people who are actually scientists and can actually back what they say with scientific evidence and plausible theories.  You'll find there are actually a fair number of these people.  Plenty of crackpots, too, but the opposing theories have seen themselves riddled with quite a few of those themselves.

Anyway... I'm taking off for the afternoon, but I love you guys.  Don't let your need to push a view get in the way of the fact that you like each other.  I don't suspect you will, but I hope Cobra doesn't get any of the flames he might be expecting.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline Ace_O_Spades

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Re: Life
« Reply #23 on: Sunday, December 03, 2006, 05:36:52 PM »
Oh, don't give me that disclaimer.  I don't mind arguments, or even flames.  There's a reason this is called the serious-topics board.  But if you're going to take square aim at my comments, don't muddy them with a meek excuse at the end.

If you read my last post, you'll see that I have no belief attached to anything.  I'm conceding the possibility that the only surviving scientific theory about our origin may be flawed or even completely wrong.  My only absolute point is that any theory based on dogma, such as creationism, is not science, just like a cheetah is not a vegetable and the ocean is not made of concrete.  Simple, straightforward observation of facts which only people ignorant of basic concepts can confuse for competing random belief systems.  Philosophy needs to be taught in philosophy or theology class, not science class.  Kids are confused enough already to screw up their minds further with this zealot-driven political bullshit.

What the hell!?

It was a GENERAL statement. The only thing that my post had to do with yours was that it happened to be posted after yours and I put "it's not a thread for flames" in it. <- that is the only reference to your post in mine. I was actually going to post what I posted before I even read what you wrote... Like Que said, I hope you can divorce the fact that you hate me from the discussion.

How was I taking square aim at your comments? I'd love to know.
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Offline Ace_O_Spades

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Re: Life
« Reply #24 on: Sunday, December 03, 2006, 05:41:28 PM »
For reference: My comment "too bad not everyone can separate faith from fact" was a knock on the religious extremists who feel the need to kill for their cause because people don't believe what they do, not as an affront to anyone's beliefs.

*sigh*

probably not worth my time, everything I say gets misconstrued as an attack on someone
The CONtrast
...Is the conTRAST
to THE contrast...

Offline Ghandi

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Re: Life
« Reply #25 on: Sunday, December 03, 2006, 09:19:59 PM »
Ghandi, you emphasized leaving religion out of the picture, yet your post makes itself difficult to address without involving religion.  God, whether a separate entity, or our collective selves and surroundings, requires belief through faith.  You must believe in something just because you do, not because of conviction based on facts in evidence.  But I think you meant to exclude organized religion only, dogmas imposed by powerful organizations.  That's what I'll be assuming.

You assumed correct, the only reason I referred to the word God was simply for lack of a better word. Although, I don't exactly know my true intention with the post, as I was somewhat intoxicated during it's creation, so lets just assume thats what I meant.

I'll add more later when I have time to read and think about the rest of the topic.  :P

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Life
« Reply #26 on: Sunday, December 03, 2006, 10:39:46 PM »
For reference: My comment "too bad not everyone can separate faith from fact" was a knock on the religious extremists who feel the need to kill for their cause because people don't believe what they do, not as an affront to anyone's beliefs.

*sigh*

probably not worth my time, everything I say gets misconstrued as an attack on someone

*sigh* ??

HOW DARE YOU SIR!?! >:(

Offline Xessive

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Re: Life
« Reply #27 on: Sunday, December 03, 2006, 11:10:48 PM »
Oh that "Ace_O_Spades" with his Ace and his Spades! How dare he! :P

Anyone here believe in Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Offline idolminds

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Re: Life
« Reply #28 on: Sunday, December 03, 2006, 11:19:21 PM »
Me. Their heaven has a stripper factory *and* a beer volcano.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Life
« Reply #29 on: Sunday, December 03, 2006, 11:20:28 PM »
That is the weirdest thing I have ever seen.

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Life
« Reply #30 on: Monday, December 04, 2006, 12:30:55 AM »
Oh that "Ace_O_Spades" with his Ace and his Spades! How dare he! :P

Anyone here believe in Flying Spaghetti Monster?


It looks like an alien penis.

Also how about there is no meaning to life at all and we are just overrating our existence? What if we are but a spec of dust in the grander scheme of things and are just trying to create self importance when there is none?

Either that or we are being prepared to go up against the army of Shai'tan. BRING IT ON!!!!!


Offline Ace_O_Spades

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Re: Life
« Reply #31 on: Monday, December 04, 2006, 01:35:11 AM »
I don't really think anything would change for 99.999+% of the Universe if our sun exploded and everything in the solar system disappeared.

Kinda fun to think of actually... there's not a whole lot we can do that is significant or important in the grand scheme of things.

Good motivation to go drink another beer
The CONtrast
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to THE contrast...

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Life
« Reply #32 on: Monday, December 04, 2006, 02:32:21 AM »
Then again, what if there is no grand scheme?  What if we actually are the only sentient life in the universe and if we go, that's it?  Just a bunch of cosmic vapor to drift around aimlessly until the universe collapses upon itself.  That would kind of suck.

Also good motivation to go drink another beer.  Cheers!

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline Pugnate

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Re: Life
« Reply #33 on: Monday, December 04, 2006, 08:05:09 AM »
Yup that's what I mean.

Offline beo

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Re: Life
« Reply #34 on: Monday, December 04, 2006, 08:07:57 PM »
everything is entirely pointless. freewill is an illusion. our brains receive input from various sources (memories, hormones, genetics, environmental factors, etc) and then give an output. we're born, we live, we die - somewhere along the line we may reproduce and allow our genetics to follow this repetition. the fact that we believe in anything else is merely delusion, so that we can cope with the futility of it all. there is no divine purpose or plan, when we're dead, we're dead and what we did in life means nothing.

either that, or whatever is out there, whatever purpose we have is so far beyond our simplistic comprehension of space, time and everything else, that there really isn't any point in trying to fathom it.

obviously this is only my opinion, but i feel the need to state that as to limit the offense of my outwardly atheistic views.

Offline poomcgoo

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Re: Life
« Reply #35 on: Tuesday, December 05, 2006, 09:27:39 AM »
(This is fairly long, but bear with me.)

I like to think we're a smart group of people.  We've all been reading each others' posts for years now, and from what I've gathered, you're all very aware.  It's not surprising that a lot of us have some rather dissenting views on life and religion -- I've been there myself.  Think about it.  Do any creation theories make any logical sense?  The big bang is dumb.  "God" to some, is completely invisible to us -- how can that be real?  Why are there so many religions?  How can everybody be right?

Just stupid questions that everyone has asked themselves at one point.  Logically, none of it makes any sense.  Nobody can prove any theory that exists and nobody ever will, so what else are these things but a waste of time?  Organized religion, I'm sure, is also ridiculous, right?

This all may be true from a logical standpoint, but I think a lot of you are missing one of the biggest parts of religion.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Cobra was trying to touch on the idea that you believe in something to believe in it.  Who are we if we have nothing to believe in?  You can't prove or disprove anything, which is why anyone can have faith in anything, be it God or some big spaghetti monster.

Religion itself has everything to do with the idea of religion.  You may believe in something because you swear it's true.  You may not.  I'm Catholic.  The logic in me tells me that I could be dead wrong, and that a lot of what is taught to us seems too ridiculous to be reality.  As far as I'm concerned logic has its places, but in religion I like to keep it to a minimum.  You'll never solve the riddle, you're not right, you never will be -- just like everybody else.  Fighting this with logic leaves you with bitterness and dissent.  The answers are impossible, bitterness is inevitable --  that IS faith.  I feel like a lot of people lose sight of that -- myself included.

I found myself in that place for a while.  I was too smart for religion, the Bible is ridiculous, organized religion is insane, etc...  But what was I living for?  What was I living BY?  If nothing else, religion serves as a guideline on life.  Be good to others; believe in God and you will be saved; respect etc...  If anything, religion makes us better people.  It makes us happier people.  It gives you hope, no matter how farfetched it may be.  Sure you can't prove it, but you can't disprove it either.  That IS the essence of religion.

I live my life now as a Catholic.  I was born Catholic, and I've never changed.  Sounds stupid to some, as it did to me one time.  I've been forced to believe something, it's not my own belief etc...  These are some problems people have with organized religion.  I'm not a Catholic because my parents made me do it.  I'm a Catholic because that's what I believe in.  I believe in the values that the Bible teaches, not necessarily the actual tales.  Did David really defeat Goliath?  I don't care.  Can I prove that my God is the true savior, and that everything I've been taught is pure fact?  No, but it makes me feel good to believe in something.

You need to believe in something.  Organized religion, independent religions, personal beliefs.  Belief in something is what makes us human -- it's what governs our lives and why we're here.  Without faith in something, anything, what are you doing here?

I don't know how well I got my point across here, I feel like I didn't articulate well enough.  I don't know, what do you guys think?

Offline idolminds

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Re: Life
« Reply #36 on: Tuesday, December 05, 2006, 11:24:40 AM »
My take.

I don't care if people believe in religion. From my point of view, I can see why religions were created. First, our realization of our own mortality is some scary shit. We know we're going to die eventually, and anything past death is unknown. The thought of complete nothingness, that we simply cease to exist is very depressing and makes most people not care what they do (to/for themselves or others).

So some people believed that there was an afterlife, a place that you went after you died. Death wasn't the end...thats a cheery thought, and a lot of people got on board. Its a comforting thing to believe, much better than that whole "nothingness" stuff. Thus, religion was born. It branched and changed, and some were developed separately since wanting something after death is a pretty universal want. They tossed in stuff that explained things that could not be explained (theres a Greek god for damn near everything).

Then some individuals realized it was a good tool for controlling the people. "Dude, God wants you to pay me taxes" and things like that. So it helped keep people in line.

While I don't believe in them, I do find different religions interesting. Seeing the different customs and trying to figure out why those customs were created. Its all pretty fascinating.

For the people that think its horrible I don't believe in god and want to try convert me...this is what I tell them. If god exists in the way you say he does, then he is well aware of my existence and why I believe what I believe. He also knows what it would take to prove to me that he is real. First, he hasn't proven himself to me. Second, he hasn't struck me dead. I take that as a sign that he's ok with who I am.

So I understand why people are religious, it's just not for me. I don't need that to be happy in life. Plus my Sundays are free to watch cartoons.

Offline Cobra951

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Re: Life
« Reply #37 on: Tuesday, December 05, 2006, 05:43:20 PM »
This all may be true from a logical standpoint, but I think a lot of you are missing one of the biggest parts of religion.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Cobra was trying to touch on the idea that you believe in something to believe in it.  Who are we if we have nothing to believe in?  You can't prove or disprove anything, which is why anyone can have faith in anything, be it God or some big spaghetti monster.

Actually, I was trying to distinguish between science and religion or philosophy.  Pure science does not admit pre-existing belief, although implementing this ideal is difficult (impossible?) for us belief-mired humans.  You can never prove a scientific theory, but you can disprove them when they are wrong in ways we can quantify.  Some theories, like Newtonian physics, are perfectly adequate for a long time, but eventually need revision based on improved human powers of observation.  (Enter relativity.)  It's a game of last man standing.  After all other theories have been debunked through empirical exercises and analysis, whatever is left is what scientists will continue to support, until those too are superseded by more correct models of reality.

Religion and philosophy are entirely based on belief.  No controlled experimentation to disprove is possible/valid.  (How do you disprove that all women came from a man's rib?  If an all-powerful God did this, but wanted us to think they evolved from plankton, when we use our Him-given powers of observation and reasoning, He would have the absolute power to make it so.  Resistance is futile.)  They are self-contained and self-perpetuating.  They will never help us get to the moon or drive an automobile across the country.

It's not a matter of believing just to believe.  As you said, we all need something to believe in.  It is an innate human need.  But let's not confuse faith with chipping out glimpses of physical reality from our environment with reasoning, experimentation, and conclusions based on results.

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Life
« Reply #38 on: Tuesday, December 05, 2006, 07:03:27 PM »
See, I agree with more or less what everyone just said.  I have at various points in my life been extremely interested in a generalized sense of religion, in science, and philosophy, and I've studied a lot of them.  Not in as much detail as many have, but a lot more than I've often considered myself capable of (hyperactivity is a curse).  Do I believe every last thing I believe can be proven?  No.  Do I believe that a lot of it can, at least to a theoretical level of scrutiny?  Yes, some.  Have I argued philosophies and studied things that I think have truth to them even though they aren't something my own religion supports?  Yes.

I think what people miss is more a combination of things.  Poom finds himself caught somewhere in between, but instead of trying to reconcile his logic and belief, he separates them.  That will fill the needs of both, but it does leave one a little out in the cold.  Many others go straight for either the logic or the belief, tending to quickly pass off things from one or the other without giving them a great deal of thought.  Myself, I find the two are best combined.  I don't believe what I do because my parents told me so, but that's part of it.  I don't believe in what I do because there is history to support every single fact, but there's history to support a lot more than people often think.  I don't believe everything I believe can be proven by science, but I believe I should most certainly listen to what science has to say and use that tool to look at what I see from a logical perspective, and that's led to me finding *real science* that supports ideas of a younger earth and various inconsistencies with current theories, dating methods, the fossil record, etc.

And as I've also said, I don't really even care what people believe.  I'm a bit like idol in that regard.  I'm very comfortable where I'm at, and as long as people aren't shoving shit into my face on a constant basis, I could really care less what they think.  Probably a lot of us are like that, and we don't tend to take issue until we see something we strongly disagree with thrown in front of us.  I guess that's an inevitable part about belief, especially if its deeply ingrained or brought about by long years of patient consideration -- it's bound to lead to conflict.  However, I think, as we've seen here, it's really not *that* hard to coexist and talk with each other intelligently about it and still come out the other side with respect for one another.  Too often the world takes itself too seriously in terms of its religious beliefs or its firm belief that you shouldn't believe in anything.  We don't have to fight about it all the time, and it doesn't always have to end badly.

I think what it all comes down to is... who do you want to be?  This is what makes us look at stuff and try to find a belief system.  Do we want to live lives that are centered around prurience and self-satisfaction?  Lives that want to feel as though they can pinpoint things down to the narrowest detail, that we can grasp and comprehend most of what is laid out in front of us, that there is little left hiding behind it?  Lives that give us more control over ourselves and let us do whatever it is we consider to be right?  Then your life is probably going to be sans God.  Those of us who believe in God tend to want lives where we're more dedicated to helping others, to feel as though there is an actual code of proper ethics that govern people on a fundamental level, that there *are* such things as good and evil, and that if we strive to be better, we can make ourselves better and help out those around us.  And that isn't to say we all make it, on either side.  I know people who have a completely animalistic sense of morality and such but are super-duper nice people who love to help out their fellow man despite their belief that we're no better than squirrels and rats or whatever.  And I myself, while firmly believing in all this good-hearted, moral stuff, can be a fairly despicable person who grapples with a plethora of unpleasantnesses.  Such is the nature of belief.

Anyway, I also believe I haven't been playing enough video games lately, so I'm going to abandon this deep, thought-provoking conversation in favor of chaining together a few hundred zombie kills in FFXII so as to buy myself a new mystical tome of something or other that doesn't actually exist.  Cheers to escapism!

天才的な閃きと平均以下のテクニックやな。 課長有野

Offline poomcgoo

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Re: Life
« Reply #39 on: Tuesday, December 05, 2006, 08:06:34 PM »
It's not a matter of believing just to believe. 

I think a lot of times it really is just as simple as that.  Some people just need something like that in their lives.  Uh, let me try and put it into perspective...  Sports are an example that is fairly similar.  Much of the idea of sports, sporting events and the publicity behind it are to keep people out of trouble.  I mean, yeah, they started out as a bunch of guys looking to play a game, but it's grown into this thing -- maybe intentionally, maybe not.  People who might otherwise be getting into trouble are sitting down every week for the football game  -- it's purpose, on a much smaller scale.  The idle mind can be a dangerous thing.

Religion (again, this is only for some people) is similar to this in that it gives people with nothing better to do some kind of purpose, pride, faith, conscience etc...  Whatever you want to call it.  A lot of religion, whether you believe in it or not, is how it shapes you as a person while youre alive and well on the planet earth.  Afterlife is what we look forward to, and if by being a better person not only makes you happy, but sends you to your heaven, then its served its purpose.  Whether or not people realized this consciously or not, again, who knows.  It's like the sports thing.  Did people create this grand idea of heaven because they wanted to believe that it was true?  Probably.  But what it is now is even more important than that.  It gives people guidelines to live by.  It keeps the majority of people from doing nasty things.

It's essentially taken on new purpose, which is why not believing in anything at all puts some people at risk for fucking up their lives.  Of course, there are plenty of people who believe in nothing and it suits them just fine -- that's admirable.  To be able to build your own guidelines to whats right and wrong, or who to pray to when something goes wrong or where to place your faith when you're at the bottom.  That's tough.  It's one thing not believing in God or Heaven, but religion is a lot more than that, which I think a lot of times, people forget.

I'm Catholic because I believe in what values they tend to hold, by how their lives are governed through their own rules written in the Bible.  If there really is a God, and a Heaven that awaits, then I'll have lived my life to the best of my abilities and I'll be rewarded for it.  If the idea of a God is too farfetched, is it a little easier to think that maybe "one good turn deserves another?"  At least that's something we can see in life, which makes the whole thing a little easier to swallow.  I really find myself amazed at how complex religion really can be, and where you'll find its influences in life that you never thought of before. 

Now, I'm the furthest thing from a Bible thumper.  I'll never shove my beliefs down anybody else's throat because people have the right to believe anything that pleases them.  If there's one thing I think demands equality more than anything, it's everybody's equal right to pursue their own faiths.  My religion serves me in life, in lifestyle, and in places I wouldn't even know about.  There are Buddhists who are served in the same way, much like there are for athiests, agnostics, jews, hindus and so on.  These people are served by their beliefs, whether it's in a God or even a lack thereof.

It's really hard to explain, and I still don't feel like I've gotten what I want to say across, but in a way, that's what religion is.